From Fujifilm to Leica

[gyoung]

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Well the Fuji has 'smearing' at the corners at wide apertures, but it doesnt have an AA filter, so I prefer the 'theory' that it is refraction through the cover glass (whatever its function) that causes sharpness problems in the corners.

 

Gerry

Edited September 23, 2018 by gyoung

[jaapv]

I don't think so. I referred to the filter stack above, neither the IR (you mean IR-cut i guess) nor the AA filter. Lensrentals don't refer to IR or AA either if i read them well. The question i'm raising is that of the thickness of the entire filter, not the presence or absence of such or such layer into it. This is what Lensrentals were measuring when they found 0.5mm for the M8 and 0.9mm for the M9 IINW. 

If you don't think so I fear you have it wrong. Read again. That Lens Rentals article says nothing about the way the filter stack is built up. Reflect, rather, on the meaning of the word "stack".

If Kolari had removed your entire filter stack you would have a 100% IR sensitive camera.

The 0,5 and 0,8 for the M IR filters is well known. It has been mentioned often in this forum.

There are different configurations. Sony uses a single AA filter, Nikon in the D810 uses a double ( a separating and a reconstituting one) with the IR absorbing glass in between, Leica uses none, like Kodak in the past, etc.

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[lct]

If you don't think so I fear you have it wrong. Read again. If Kolari had removed your entire filter stack you would have a 100% IR sensitive camera. The 0,5 and 0,8 for theM IR filters is well known. It has been mentioned often in this forum.

 

Again, i'm referring to the filter stack here. The thickness of the CL's is what i'm interested in. IR or AA are not relevant to my question. Not sure why you refer to my Sony body BTW but its sensor stack must be around 0.7mm thick if this is of any interest.

[jaapv]

OK. The CL has no AA filter, so the thickness of the stack is only the IR abs. filter, i.e. well  under 1 mm. The thickness of  the Sony filter stack is 3.0 mm. 

[lct]

Well the Fuji has 'smearing' at the corners at wide apertures, but it doesnt have an AA filter, so I prefer the 'theory' that it is refraction through the cover glass (whatever its function) that causes sharpness problems in the corners.

 

Indeed my X-E2 has a 2mm filter stack and has softer corners than my CL, so i suspect the sensor stack of the latter must be somewhere between 1mm and 2mm thick.

[lct]

OK. The CL has no AA filter, so the thickness of the stack is only the IR abs. filter, i.e. well  under 1 mm. 

 

I suspect it is above 1mm personally but this is indeed the question. 

[jaapv]

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I suspect it is above 1mm personally but this is indeed the question. 

Not a question. Only an IR absorbing glass. Probably 0.8 mm.

 

http://www.slack.co.uk/leica-cl.html

 

Scroll down to "shooting with M lenses". Both Jono and Sean Reid agree that there is no AA filter and thus no smearing in the corners.

 

It matches my experience. The camera has clean corners and is (mildly) prone to moiré effects.

[lct]

[...] Both Jono and Sean Reid agree that there is no AA filter and thus no smearing in the corners. [...]

 

I'll have to disagree with them then, sorry for these good folks. Again it is not, or at least not only, a question of AA filter, but a question of sensor stack thickness. Now that you say it, i'm not so sure about Sean BTW. Are you sure you don't confuse him with someone else?

[jaapv]

Well, I'm sure that you will excuse me for taking technical facts and the publications of top experts and Leica beta testers over your ideas.

For the last time: The AA filter is one of the filters in the filter stack and by far the thickest. The IR filters are more or less the same thickness across the brands. Mostly within 0.5 mm difference.

 

 

stack
noun

    1A pile of objects, typically one that is neatly arranged.
    ‘a stack of boxes’

 

(Oxford Dictionary)

[lct]

Well, I'm sure that you will excuse me for taking technical facts and the publications of top experts and Leica beta testers over your ideas

 

I surely will, even if the top expert you're referring to did not say the same things as you do. Are you sure he did BTW?

Edited September 23, 2018 by lct

[gyoung]

Indeed my X-E2 has a 2mm filter stack and has softer corners than my CL, so i suspect the sensor stack of the latter must be somewhere between 1mm and 2mm thick.

I don't remember seeing a thickness quoted for the Fuji stack/coverglass but thought it possibly more than 2mm, nearer the 4 of Sony A series. M4/3 is I think the "worst',the Panasonic G1 I had gave awful results with anything M mount below 50mm.

 

Gerry

[lct]

I don't remember seeing a thickness quoted for the Fuji stack/coverglass [...]

 

2mm for the X-E2 according to Lensrentals (link above)

[jbstitt]

First, congratulations on  you inheritance and on an understanding wife who appreciates Leica passion. This will be my first post in several years. I have spent most of my life with Leica first with an used M2, soon followed by an original SL SLR which slowly grew with quite a stable of lenses.  Great film SLR!  With Tech Pan and a good tripod rivaled 4 x 5 for my B&W landscapes. This SL Leica remains my only Leica body in my cabinet now, but I have not sold any of the R or M lenses. Next I had an original Leica CL then a M6 Panda,  I did have an R8 with the Digital R back (fantastic Leica look pics but  like carrying around a concrete block ). This led to all my R glass being 3 cammed. 

   My last Leica was a Leica Digilux 2 and I loved that wonderful but limited camera.  The secret was the f/2 28-90 equivalent Summicron and the manual aperture ring.  Those are convenience and handling.  THE SECRET TO THE LEICA LOOK IS LEICA GLASS!  They know something no one else does although Fuji is getting close.  I look through my best prints and so many of the wonderful ones were taken with the lowly 5 meg Digilux.2. (Explodes the myth that more megapixel makes for better photography.)   Amazing what one can do with some of the old shooter stabilization tricks like strap hand wrap and stance and f/2 at ei 400.  But alas, it got old and I wanted better but the Leica prices went higher and higher for M digital bodies, outside my budget and frankly not perfected ,but I still dreamed.  I tried Minolta (not bad) but since they stopped partnering with Leica  not pro the quality I wanted then they were no more. All this time I remembered a mentor's words to me during the 60's "Never sell Leitz or Leica glass!"  I have kept it all. I went with MFT early on mostly with Panasonic, even with several M lens adapters but frankly results with the Digilux 2 were better!  I finally bought a used Fuji X Pro 1 with stock lens.  The image quality was great when it hit right but it was nothing but frustration with the focus system. A camera store person convinced me to sell that and buy an X e-2.  I must admit the possibility of using M glass on it enticed me.   I have I think 5 M to X adapters and now am buying an R to X.  I shoot Fuji and M glass on my e2. To respond to one suggestion to you, I do have a 40 Summicron-C and have shot it on the e2 and a sharp little bugger it is, but the problem is the bastard thread for the 5.5 series filters and the lens hoods that are no longer available!  Think about it; for $200 to $300 US$ you have a tiny 60mm f/2 equivalent lens.  I have a 35 and 50 M too both of which are good and they have lens hoods. 

 

The problem with the e2 was it was still slow with inaccurate auto focus with their lens and poor peaking with M glass and the early firmware.  NOW, I have 4.11 firmware and I have close to my dream camera, a modern Digilux 2.who knows. I can manual focus Leica glass fast. (both my 35 and 50 have the focus tabs which were wonderful for quick manual focusing.)   And my 90 Elmarit-m becomes a 135 f/2, and so compact.  The autofocus with Fuji glass now works pretty good. but my hit rate is still  better manually focusing.

 

I have read your whole thread with much interest.  Your questions sound like my questions.  (and I agree with others the 58m f/1.2 Fuji is a fantastic lens.  For B&W the shallow depth and Bokah are marvelous. )

 

Am I still watching Leica for the body that will be better; you betcha!  I really have had strong interest in the new CL and SL. 

 

Keep us posted on what you do and how you like the results.

 

 

[mdroe]

Thank you jbstitt for your camera history and interest; my history too is longer than I mentioned. My father was an artist and took me as a child to drool over Nikon cameras in the town camera shop. He owned an SLR, Minox 35 and Polaroid SX-70 to support his work before I bought my first camera, a beautiful Olympus XA which lasted until the humidity seized it in northern Thailand. I’m sure a couple of Minolta’s and one Nikon SLR followed before my Contax G2 with Zeiss primes before today’s Fujifilm XE1 and XT1. Accurate autofocus with Fujifilm has been my problem too although I’m sure more recent models will have addressed this issue.

 

My grandmother Gwen was 98 at the end and born of strength from enduring the Second World War and it’s consequences. She taught English Literature to Oxford and Cambridge applicants, and could quote most of Shakespeare from memory until her last few months. Quite a personal history too, as a child friends with a man who fought in the Boer war, and collected silver coins back to 1870. Buying my Leica is a good way to remember her!

 

I’ll definitely keep the forum posted and thanks.

[mdroe]

After today’s announcements (cleared the way) I ordered a CL and 11-23 to start my Leica journey!

 

Now to find a good 40mm f2.0 to test out M lenses on the CL too.

 

Mat

[mdroe]

Well folks I have purchased a CL, 11-23, L to M converter, and 40mm f2  all awaiting delivery.  I spent time at the excellent Red Dot Cameras in London being ably helped by Ivor, and am now awaiting a used 60mm macro to appear on the market too.  Thought I'd try manual focus using the 40mm f2 and see how successful (or not) I can be.  Success might lead to an M10 :-)  

[ramarren]

Good luck with it! 

"Used 60mm macro" ... Are you referring to the TL series APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm f/2.8 or the R series Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8? Both are outstanding lenses. The R series lens will necessitate an R Adapter M to fit onto your M Adapter L, and the combination together will likely cost 1/3 what a new TL60 macro would cost.

[mdroe]

I’m planning to purchase the TL 60mm for its autofocus, macro, and portraits too.

[ramarren]

If you want AF, the TL60 is the only way to go.

I considered a new TL60, but after testing and comparing it to the R60 I decided that my R60 was actually more useful for my purposes because of its focusing scale and reproduction ratio markings. Different purposes.

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[mdroe]

I’d like to provide a first update on progress with my CL, TL 11-23mm, and 40mm Summicron-C.  Once again thank you to all who offered advice prior to purchase.

The 11-23mm is a good combination with the 40mm prime, although the l’m fairly sure I’ll plump for a 35 Summicron (or maybe Summilux) as a replacement for extra field of view.  I’m on the hunt for a TL 60mm to complete the line-up.

The camera is a joy to use once familiar with the controls, particularly exposure compensation on the left wheel and focus magnification on the right.  The latter is an absolute joy to use with the 40mm Summicron-C as is focus peaking too.  I love the way all this draws you in to composition of you picture.  Here are a few from today around Tsumago in Japan.

I haven’t had this much fun taking photos in years!

Matthew

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Painted wooden figures: 40mm 1/125 ISO100 -1.3EV

Waki-Honjin: 11-23mm 1/125 f5.6 ISO2500 -1.3EV

Ripening persimmon: 40mm 1/125 ISO320 -1.7EV

Edited November 14, 2018 by mdroe