Jump to content

Move from digital to film?


KallumR

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi all, 

For the past few years i've been shooting with a Leica M8.2 with an f2.8/28mm Zeiss and I've been loving it! 

 

However, I am a little scared of future problems with the electronics and long, long-term reliability. I'd love to have a camera for a great deal of my life that just works - rather then one day waking up to a paper weight when I need it most. I have heard many horror stories of abhorrently large repair costs if sensors or electronics go, and my previous M8's shutter just exploded one day [but luckily caught it on insurance] - so definitely looking for something rugged.

 

I used to shoot film a fair bit on an old Pentax K1000 - so definitely familiar with the experience. But i'd love to hear someone convince me of selling/trading the M8.2 into the Leica filmsphere. 

 

I do not have infinite money to spend on lenses here - so I definitely need to keep using my 28mm [maybe a 50 can join the kit later down the line, or if I have some $ leftover]. I'd kill to keep a black paint body - as with the M8.2 I just adore the slow patina, but clearly everyone does and people obviously will pay for that quite a bit! 

 

Has anyone got some recommendations on what Leica is reliable, whats convenient and whats a pleasure to shoot film with? 

 

Sorry if I sound like an amateur - just keen for lots of opinions, 

Thanks all, 

K. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

None from the film Leica will lasts lifetime ... without service. More you will use it, more often service will be needed.

I worn out mine within two years. But it was in heavy use. Not CLA, but repair with parts was needed. I was waiting for months to have them this part delivered. 

If you want film and Leica get couple of LTM ones. It easy to find not expensive 50mm LTM lens, SBOOI is not very expensive.

Non expensive 35mm LTM lenses are available and it little bit harder to find 28 but they are around and corresponding brightline finders are. Lens doesn't have to be super lens, film is much more forgiving. And LTMs are less expensive in service.

In this case you'll be only dependent on film manufacturing and availability of service. How long will it be, nobody knows. 

 

As for M8.2 they are pricey now. Sell and some more and get used M240. Use it for five years, sell, add more and get used M10.

As long as Leica will made new M, they will be available used and serviced.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ill make a suggestion, the Leica Null Series. Barnack ingenuity at its purest, modern lens technology at its finest, exceptional build quality and rarity will make this always a desired camera.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, 

For the past few years i've been shooting with a Leica M8.2 with an f2.8/28mm Zeiss and I've been loving it! 

 

However, I am a little scared of future problems with the electronics and long, long-term reliability. I'd love to have a camera for a great deal of my life that just works - rather then one day waking up to a paper weight when I need it most. I have heard many horror stories of abhorrently large repair costs if sensors or electronics go, and my previous M8's shutter just exploded one day [but luckily caught it on insurance] - so definitely looking for something rugged.

 

I used to shoot film a fair bit on an old Pentax K1000 - so definitely familiar with the experience. But i'd love to hear someone convince me of selling/trading the M8.2 into the Leica filmsphere. 

 

I do not have infinite money to spend on lenses here - so I definitely need to keep using my 28mm [maybe a 50 can join the kit later down the line, or if I have some $ leftover]. I'd kill to keep a black paint body - as with the M8.2 I just adore the slow patina, but clearly everyone does and people obviously will pay for that quite a bit! 

 

Has anyone got some recommendations on what Leica is reliable, whats convenient and whats a pleasure to shoot film with? 

 

Sorry if I sound like an amateur - just keen for lots of opinions, 

Thanks all, 

K. 

I have been using M2 for last couple of months and thoroughly enjoying the process. I have some other film cameras too (Nikon FM2 and Konica Autoreflex T2) which I used first to start shooting films but after getting M2, I use it more often (reusing my M glass, easier to focus, smaller package etc.)

 

I wrote my brief experience in this thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Has anyone got some recommendations on what Leica is reliable, whats convenient and whats a pleasure to shoot film with?

 

@KallumR,

 

Every film M camera user has a specific film M - sometimes two - that they swear by.  For many it is the M6, the MP, the M4 or the M5.  For me, it is the M4-P. 

 

The M4-P is essentially an early equivalent of the current M-A, but at 20-25% the cost of a new M-A.  The M4-P was made in two finishes - chrome and black chrome, both of which were chosen to hold up to heavy use over the long haul.

 

Sooner or later, every film M will need a CLA or even an overhaul, depending on how much use it it is subjected to.  Based on what I have been told, if a film M is used the way a photographic hobbyist would use an M, an overhaul will last about 10 years.  An overhaul involves taking the camera completely apart, replacing parts that need to be replaced, cleaning, lubricating and adjusting the camera and reassembling it.  For all intents, it is now pretty much a new camera. 

 

As long as one of the Leica M repair masters can lay hands on parts and the camera is properly maintained, any film M camera is fully capable of outliving its owner and probably the person who inherits it.

 

With the M4-P, you need a hand held meter, unless you are good at guesstimating exposure based on available light.  This is not as big of an issue as some think it is; I have found that I don't need to meter a shot unless the light changes drastically, as in going from indoors to outdoors.  Metering for every shot in the same light is just making unnecessary busy work for yourself.

 

Five years ago when I was still shooting film 100%, I traveled to Mongolia with my film MP and my M4-P.  after 10 days of shooting, the MP froze up; a screw had backed out and I could not advance or  rewind the film.  My M4-P saved the day (or more accurately, the last four days). 

 

It turns out the high frequency vibrations caused by the jet engines on the long flight to Mongolia had caused the screw problem in the MP.  The M4-P kept right on running, though.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

 

Has anyone got some recommendations on what Leica is reliable, whats convenient and whats a pleasure to shoot film with? 

 

 

 

I also agree the M4-P is the best overall fit.

 

They were built to take a motor drive so the internals are rugged compared with cameras before and after, they are relatively cheap, they aren't weird (ahem, Null series?) in the sense they are at the fringes of versatility and usability, and they have all the frame lines you need in one package. I'm sure somebody will chip in with 'buy an M2' (or M4, M4, M5 etc.), and I couldn't fault them if you had already decided what you want in a film Leica enough to make specific decisions, but the M4-P gives you everything you need to become knowledgeable, except a built in meter of course.

 

There is one other consideration, and it's to do with the pleasure of shooting film, and few can deny it's a pleasure. But have you braced yourself sufficiently for the subsequent work of extracting the pictures from your exposed film? There are many ways to do it, but all involve additional costs and work just to get to the point of editing your pictures down to a few you want to make into prints or scan for the internet.

Edited by 250swb
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not live in both worlds and get a decent M2 additionally, the presumably most affordable M-camera?

 

The "problem" with film is that perhaps the camera might be longer lasting, but an easy supply of film is not that certain in the (not so) distant future.

 

I believe, we have to accept that a Leica no longer is a purchase for a lifetime but a fantastic machine that we need to enjoy using now. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The "problem" with film is that perhaps the camera might be longer lasting, but an easy supply of film is not that certain in the (not so) distant future.

 

 

 

Really,....... you mean even taking into account the current resurgence in film use, small scale materials manufacturers popping up, and more convenient availability by online ordering?

 

Once upon a time I had to go down to the camera shop and buy whatever film they had in stock, now I can sit at home and be amazed at all the films and chemicals that are available at the press of a button.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not live in both worlds and get a decent M2 additionally, the presumably most affordable M-camera?

 

The "problem" with film is that perhaps the camera might be longer lasting, but an easy supply of film is not that certain in the (not so) distant future.

 

I believe, we have to accept that a Leica no longer is a purchase for a lifetime but a fantastic machine that we need to enjoy using now. 

 

I remember the first time I was told that film is dead and that it was only a matter of time before it would no longer be available.  That was in 1997. 

 

Twenty one years later, we have this:  https://emulsive.org/reviews/film-reviews/film-list/every-single-film-stock-still-made-today-part-1-adox-to-dubblefilm

 

IMHO, Leica M cameras (and lenses) are cameras for a lifetime; digital M cameras may not have as long of a usable life as film M cameras, though. On the other hand, we may be pleasantly surprised at how long the digital M cameras will last before they break down and are no longer repairable.  Most digital M users never have their camera long enough to know, though.  I plan on keeping and using my M-P 240 - yes, that fat, bloated, button riddled, movie making bastard child of the M line - just to see how long it will continue to run.

 

If you pay $7995 USD for an M10-P body today and it continues to function and is usable for 20-25 years - not at all unrealistic if it is cared for properly and used with a bit of care - the cost is in the range of $320-400 USD per year.  When I think about it, I spend that much per year getting coffee at Starbucks; a $300-400 annual outlay will impoverish very few of we fortunate first world L Camera Forum types.

 

The question is not so much what is the usable life of an M camera, be it film or digital.  The question is what is our usable life?  Any one of us may find ourselves on the coroner's table by lunchtime today.  Therefore, quit stewing about usable life, buy the camera and shoot your ass off as if today is your last day on earth.  It may well be.  ;)

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can have the best of both worlds. The great thing about the Leica M system (and, for that matter, the Nikon F, and Canon EOS systems) is that you can have a set of fantastic lenses which can attach either a digital or film body to.

 

I shoot both film and digital M cameras for my personal photography. My M Monochrom mk1 celebrated its sixth birthday last month. Leica serviced it and replaced the sensor in 2016, and didn't charge me a penny. As a £6K camera, ownership has cost me (so far) £1000 per year, or £20 per week. And I've shot tens of thousands of pictures on it. That cost will only keep diminishing. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you back up your best files to a minimum of three separate hard drives, and make sure you're always up to date, all should be good. There's even a place in France which will make a permanent 5x4 negative from your digital file.

 

But film is really special. It's harder work. The success rate is lower, and more expensive to achieve. But when you look at a negative you're happy with, on a light box, or make it into a wet print, well - that's one of the great joys of photography.

 

You could pick up a nice M2 or M4-P for a good price, and never look back. It's pretty hard to wear out a film Leica M.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted this summary of mine earlier this year in another film M thread here, but it fits well into this discussion, too. I started off with a M6, added later the M7, and just a year ago the M3 which I got for a decent deal from a friend of mine. The M6 and M7 I bought online from reputable used camera stores in nearly mint condition - they weren't used much, the M7 looked brand new. I only had to do CLA with the M3 because it was sitting in a basement for many years unused, and the lubricant greased up. Now the M3 also works perfectly. 

In recent years prices for film M cameras went up significantly caused by higher demand. Very hard to find good deals these days especially for the newer models (like M6 and M7). 

 

Leica M3

+ No batteries needed, all mechanical

+ Best viewfinder and focus magnification (0.91x) for 50 and 90 mm, no doubt about it

+ No rangefinder patch flare!

+ Extremely well built

+ Double stroke is quite nice to use

- Film loading is a bit more cumbersome to do especially when outdoors

- Slightly blueish viewfinder is different when working with another M in parallel

- No frame lines for focal length below 50 mm

- No internal light meter

 

Leica M6

+ Frame lines down to 28 mm

+ Still works at limited exposure time without battery

+ Weight and size is perfect for travel

- Rangefinder patch flare can be annoying

- A bit too little exposure dial in the non-TTL version which only rotates in clockwise direction from B position

 

Leica M7

+ Frame lines the same as in the M6

+ Rarely any rangefinder patch flare

+ Option to use Av mode (I rarely do though)

+ Automatic film ISO detection

+ More narrow/selective exposure metering 

- Film cartridge doesn't slide out of the camera as easily as in the M6 after film is fully exposed

- ISO wheel on the back is not intuitive when using the camera the first time

- Clockwise rotation starts at short towards long exposures on the exposure dial opposite to the M6 (which can be confusing when using M6 and M7 in parallel)

- Uses more batteries and doesn't work without them

- Heavier than the M6

 

I find myself most often using the M6 since I am shooting also predominantly with wider focal length lenses. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not live in both worlds and get a decent M2 additionally, the presumably most affordable M-camera?

 

The "problem" with film is that perhaps the camera might be longer lasting, but an easy supply of film is not that certain in the (not so) distant future.

 

 

The M2 can be a very good deal since it also has 35 mm frame lines (otherwise nearly the same as the M3). 

 

Even Fuji announced to stop several 35 mm film types, others are either in the process or already finished re-making old films. Ferrania P30 is one example, Kodak bringing slide film back another. Fuji's decision to stop making films was driven by their success with the modern Instax camera film and made a few years ago when film in general didn't see the resurgence yet which it is seeing now. There  are even rumors that Fuji might revise this decision to stop making these films at some point. Nevertheless, there is a long list of available films to choose from, and in nearby photo stores I am seeing now shelves with film more filled than during many years ago. I admit that this is not happening everywhere - I can only see it from living in the US, and I know that film in Germany is by far not there yet with the same momentum. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

As a continuation of #12 above, Emulsive just published part 7 of their list of available emulsions:  https://emulsive.org/reviews/every-single-film-stock-still-made-today-part-7-the-complete-a-z-plus-thoughts-on-the-future-of-film

 

180 total film emulsions are now available with 158 of them being made in 35mm format.  There is also a link to a long and comprehensive article on the future of film:  https://kosmofoto.com/2017/12/what-does-film-photographys-future-look-like-now/

Edited by Herr Barnack
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

...they aren't weird (ahem, Null series?) in the sense they are at the fringes of versatility and usability...

Weird is a relative concept.

 

Shooting film in 2018 is weird to a lot of people.

 

Shooting a digital camera that only takes black and white photos or has no LCD is weird to a lot of people.

 

Paying Leica prices is weird to a lot of people.

 

Fortunately most of us are not those people...

 

I say cheers to Barnack, and long live the Null series.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The "problem" with film is that perhaps the camera might be longer lasting, but an easy supply of film is not that certain in the (not so) distant future.

 

Man used to worry that when the sun set behind the horizon it would be gone for good too. Of course 'we' stopped worrying about that some time ago and now most of use realise that it will rise again each morning.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, 

For the past few years i've been shooting with a Leica M8.2 with an f2.8/28mm Zeiss and I've been loving it! 

 

However, I am a little scared of future problems with the electronics and long, long-term reliability. I'd love to have a camera for a great deal of my life that just works - rather then one day waking up to a paper weight when I need it most. I have heard many horror stories of abhorrently large repair costs if sensors or electronics go, and my previous M8's shutter just exploded one day [but luckily caught it on insurance] - so definitely looking for something rugged.

 

I used to shoot film a fair bit on an old Pentax K1000 - so definitely familiar with the experience. But i'd love to hear someone convince me of selling/trading the M8.2 into the Leica filmsphere. 

 

I do not have infinite money to spend on lenses here - so I definitely need to keep using my 28mm [maybe a 50 can join the kit later down the line, or if I have some $ leftover]. I'd kill to keep a black paint body - as with the M8.2 I just adore the slow patina, but clearly everyone does and people obviously will pay for that quite a bit! 

 

Has anyone got some recommendations on what Leica is reliable, whats convenient and whats a pleasure to shoot film with? 

 

Sorry if I sound like an amateur - just keen for lots of opinions, 

Thanks all, 

K. 

 

Digital cameras are much like computers. Most here will think nothing of chucking out their old Apple laptop to buy a newer model but 'we' cling to the notion that a Leica digital camera should last a 'lifetime' like an M3.

 

I can't afford a new Leica digital M and I too would be worried about the potential repair costs if I bought a used one, especially with some of the well known issues such as sensor corrosion. My digital cameras are Canon models which I mostly bought used. My Leica's are all film cameras.

 

A big benefit of a mechanical film camera is that I can pick it up if I decide impulsively to go out for a walk or whatever and want to take a camera. I have to plan my excursions with a digital camera, charging the batteries, clearing memory cards.

 

Assuming you've already thought about the workflow once you've shot your rolls of film then which Leica you choose is really a matter for you to decide. All the M models are subtly different and you will probably prefer one above the others (bearing in mind your budget). There aren't many that are black paint though, unless you can afford a (newer) MP. Most others are seen more as collectors items and probably not a wise buy as a user.

 

If you sell the M8 you'd have enough to buy an older film M and a 50 lens, or an M6 (probably a swap) or use it to pay towards a used MP in black paint.

 

Buy your film M from a dealer who will guarantee it for 3 or 6 months so that if anything is off they'll pay for the CLA. Or buy privately but at a price that allows for the cost of a CLA unless the sell can show you that the camera was serviced recently. After that I'd say you don't need to worry about another CLA unless something stops working properly. I bought my lllf about 30 years ago and it's still going strong, my M2 was serviced when I bought it about 10 years ago.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...