New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[jaapv]

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Trade - Optical against electronic expertise.

[bags27]

I took this off of here:https://www.l-rumors.com/

It's just a prediction of lenses coming this year. But imagine a 16-35 L mount Panasonic lens for maybe 1/3 the cost of the brilliant Leica lens. How much better IQ does the Leica have to have to justify 3x the cost?

 

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[Chaemono]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb bags27:

How much better IQ does the Leica have to have to justify 3x the cost?

 

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Ah, invoking the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility. See post #350 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/289421-new-panasonic-full-frame-with-sl-mount/?page=18

Maybe just slightly better for some if one accepts Murray Rothbard’s explanation that the desire for a marginal IQ benefit is purely subjective (see further down in that post).

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, bags27 said:

How much better IQ does the Leica have to have to justify 3x the cost?

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For me, not much. Cameras come and go. But I'll pay extra for lenses I like more, especially if they're future proof by being brilliant rather than merely fabulous.

Gordon

[sillbeers15]

7 hours ago, bags27 said:

I took this off of here:https://www.l-rumors.com/

It's just a prediction of lenses coming this year. But imagine a 16-35 L mount Panasonic lens for maybe 1/3 the cost of the brilliant Leica lens. How much better IQ does the Leica have to have to justify 3x the cost?

 

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You’re just at the wrong place to table the subject of cost. We all know that for any Leica equipment, it will be 3x to 5x of other brands. It is an indulgence we enjoy.

[jaapv]

7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Ah, invoking the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility. See post #350 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/289421-new-panasonic-full-frame-with-sl-mount/?page=18

Maybe just slightly better for some if one accepts Murray Rothbard’s explanation that the desire for a marginal IQ benefit is purely subjective (see further down in that post).

If the marginal IQ benefit is measurable, thus reality, calling it subjective is rather silly. One can disagree whether it has an impact on ones personal photography, that is a different matter, and one which makes the observation subjective, not the established fact itself.

[bags27]

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I agree that many owners, for a great number of different reasons--not just IQ, no matter how subtle the difference--will continue to buy Leica L lenses. But one thing we cannot predict is the psychological impact of having a non-Leica lens with a Leica mount. It shouldn't make much difference because of the already established ease of using non-Leica lenses with mirrorless camera and adapters. But one really never knows. Sort of like Voigtla"nders with the M mount. A lot of folks with very expensive Leica bodies buy these. Maybe not to the exclusion of M lenses, but to cost-average.

And, of course, at the extremes of focal lengths, particularly at > 300 mm, folks will eagerly jump for Panasonic or Sigma, and, when they do, they may discover that they like them nearly as well for the more traditional focal lengths. We don't know. We can't know for a couple of years at least.

[jdlaing]

9 hours ago, bags27 said:

I took this off of here:https://www.l-rumors.com/

It's just a prediction of lenses coming this year. But imagine a 16-35 L mount Panasonic lens for maybe 1/3 the cost of the brilliant Leica lens. How much better IQ does the Leica have to have to justify 3x the cost?

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

It’s not always about the money and justifying the cost.

[bags27]

1 minute ago, jdlaing said:

It’s not always about the money and justifying the cost.

Sure. I completely agree. I'm just saying that we don't know about consumer choices here.

[sillbeers15]

Not all expensive things are good &

not all good things are expensive.

When it comes to optical instruments (lenses), the bulk of cost will be materials and production yield ( you waste lots to select few that meets criteria). On the whole good staff not likely come cheap.

On the other hand, bulk manufacturing and huge production volume reduces cost tremendously. An example is LED light bulbs produced in China. Market is flooded by low cost LED bulbs one cannot distinguish one product that meets production specification ( which in theory should outlast conventional tungsten light bulb) vs many that do not meet specification resulting short lifespan yet consumers having to pay more than conventional tungsten light bulb.

Conclusion is to pay for what you want!

[Chaemono]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

If the marginal IQ benefit is measurable, thus reality, calling it subjective is rather silly. One can disagree whether it has an impact on ones personal photography, that is a different matter, and one which makes the observation subjective, not the established fact itself.

And it is measurable. For example, if one compares the 50 Summilux-SL to the Sigma Art 50/1.4 with regards to PF/CA the difference is not only marginal it’s material. I’m thinking, how much time does one need to spend in post to get rid of PF/CA, if it can be removed at all without messing up some of the other colors. And it doesn’t just stop there. The Leica lens captures Highlight details effortlessly while the Sigma lens clearly struggles. One needs to increase the shutter speed and it still can’t capture the details. It becomes evident there that it is sort of a chaepo lens or the 50 Summilux-SL is so much better. In essence the Leica lens gives the camera more DR. That alone is worth the price difference IMO. Yet, some people’s reaction even when they are shown these differences is, ‘that Simga Art lens is sweet’. And the only explanation for this reaction can be that they derive more pleasure with the Sigma lens because they save 85 percent of the cost even if it means that they are restricted to use it in situations where these issues won’t arise, which excludes pretty much every scene with extreme Highlights and Shadows. 😀 Others will avoid the pain of buying something that is limited in its use. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Chaemono

[lct]

Not exactly the same issue as with M cameras in that we choose M, ZM or VM lenses for their optical more so than technical qualities generally. More choice enhances buyers' freedom and restricts sellers' parts of the pie anyway but as far as the SL gear is concerned, the danger, if any, may rather come from technical differences in AF, OIS, IBIS and the like since Leica is a small company.

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, bags27 said:

But one thing we cannot predict is the psychological impact of having a non-Leica lens with a Leica mount. It shouldn't make much difference because of the already established ease of using non-Leica lenses with mirrorless camera and adapters. But one really never knows. Sort of like Voigtla"nders with the M mount.

We can predict with some confidence, because Zeiss has been selling "ZM" lenses for a decade or more.

One interesting side effect is that ZM lenses seem to provide a "minimum selling price" for used M lenses. You won't find a used (undamaged) 18 Elmar that is cheaper than a new ZM 18 Distagon, or a used 50 Summicron (post-1969) that is cheaper than a new ZM 50 Planar!

It's very likely that the street price of the new Panasonic 50/1.4 will determine the used price of the Summilux-SL.

[bags27]

On 1/15/2019 at 9:23 AM, BernardC said:

sorry, didn't mean to reply to you, Bernard. Just don't know how to delete this part.

First 3 minutes cover the SR1, more or less, focusing on video and the motel the guy is staying in. Still, it looks like the camera has a lot of stuffing. And Panasonic still claims to have the brightest EVF in the business, which is not nothing.

 

[Keith (M)]

And there was me hoping the the S1 would be sufficiently smaller and lighter than the SL for it to be a viable proposition...  Ah, well!

[frame-it]

looks like the SL-601  EVF

[bags27]

8 hours ago, Keith (M) said:

And there was me hoping the the S1 would be sufficiently smaller and lighter than the SL for it to be a viable proposition...  Ah, well!

Maybe not smaller, but I bet it's not made entirely out of two blocks of aluminum. 

[scroy]

10 hours ago, bags27 said:

Maybe not smaller, but I bet it's not made entirely out of two blocks of aluminum. 

Note with a Caveat, at CES I was only holding the mechanical prototype + 24-105 in one hand and my SL+35mm Summilux-TL in the other hand. I was told by the marketing guy that the weight should be nearly identical to the production version.

S1R + 24-105 is heavier than the SL+ 35mm Summilux-TL but the combo did feel quite a bit lighter than the SL+24-90mm. I had the 24-90mm with me as well, but couldn't compare them at the same time due to the line of people interested in holding the S1R.

 

 

[rob_w]

Slight digression: isn't the 35mm Summilux-TL image circle too small for the SL?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[scroy]

1 hour ago, rob_w said:

Slight digression: isn't the 35mm Summilux-TL image circle too small for the SL?

Yes, its a cropped sensor lens.  It was a nice walk around lens for me at CES with very nice image quality. 

Once the 50mm Summicron-SL is available, I will probably move to that for my SL as the walk-around lens, and the 35-TL will stick with my TL2.