New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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24 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

‘Please, let us make unsubstantiated claims as we want. Panasonic is out of the game if they don’t support M lenses. You hear this, Panasonic, you’re out of the game. Mr. B says so. Nikon is in the game with their 1.1mm sensor glass cover. Sony is in the MLCs game. So, please, make sure you have micro lenses on your sensor, Panasonic. Otherwise you’re out!’ I guess, they are starting to sweat now at Panasonic and reconsider their sensor design. How pathetic.

Both of Panasonic's FF camera sensor designs are likely 'signed sealed and delivered' and being tested in prototype cameras just 7 months prior to Photokina 2019 … thus there's nothing that any of us can say or do to influence whatever is 'in the can' … and Panasonic know what they're doing far better than forum speculators.

dunk  

[Martin B]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Maybe this should go without saying...

Nikon has no reason to optimize their sensors for Leica M glass. They have their own extensive back catalogue of F lenses, and their own Nikon customers.

Sensor glass thickness is just one ingredient in Leica's pantry. Other ingredients are micro-lenses on the sensor, and software correction individually tailored to each M lens.

What was true yesterday remains true today, unless someone can conclusively prove otherwise: the best platform for M lenses is an M camera, and the next best is the SL. Tests of the Kolari-modified Sony cameras usually conclude that image quality isn't as good as with an M (even though Sony cameras have higher pixel counts), and the camera becomes optically compromised when using native lenses. So you end-up with a camera that isn't optimized for any lens. Kolari's own product page only claims that some lenses may perform as well as they would on an M9 (a camera that was released a decade ago).

Kolari offers very interesting conversions for IR and UV photography, so I don't mean to criticize them. It's just that their "thin filter" conversions are not a panacea for owners of M lenses who (oddly) do not want to own M cameras. They probably do offer some advantage for a few high-quality SLR lenses from the film era.

Correct that Nikon likely optimizes the Z camera for their DSLR lenses - it surprised me that the cover glass was still thin. I suspect that Nikon found a way to ensure backwards compatibility with older Nikkor SLR lenses, too. Because of this, it might just be a benefit for M users here which was not intended by Nikon at all. 

This said, I agree that other paprameters are important for "perfect" performance, too - but the sensor glass cover thickness is the most important of all. The microlenses and software correction always come up in this (brand-specific) forum but much less so in others where this is seen rather as a minor concern. I agree that the best performance obviously can be achieved by staying in the same brand environment, but this is no option for me due to pricing and sensor performance (not paying this much for a 22 MP sensor, just my 2 Cents!). I am therefore rather willing to compromise a bit in lens-camera performance. And technology is getting better and more MLC cameras are now available to choose from. 

There are many M lens owners out there who do not want a digital M camera for multiple reasons (I mentioned just two above). Many used and still use Sony MLC as decent alternative. I have no personal experience with Kolari modifications, but I read excellent reviews and 1:1 comparisons with Leica M cameras which showed the same (or even better with higher resolution) performance. I use seven M lenses on my unmodified A7R with very good success - I just had to be cautious which kind of lenses to get to allow best performance on the camera (this info is all out there online). Main debit in this combo is for ultra-wide M lenses in the range of 12 to 21 mm but I have no issue from 28 to 90 mm FL. My hope is simply to find a new MLC which performs even better with ultra-wide M lenses. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Martin B

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[andybarton]

Can we please keep this thread, and all others, civil and leave the insults at home?

[lct]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Tests of the Kolari-modified Sony cameras usually conclude that image quality isn't as good as with an M (even though Sony cameras have higher pixel counts), and the camera becomes optically compromised when using native lenses

Don't count me in please. My Kolari modded A7s has a better (to me) IQ than my M240's, with less pixel count though admittedly, and i have no problem with my native lenses. I have only three of them though and i don't use them much to be honest. Also i am not a jpeg shooter and i have to adjust colors in PP. Aside from the brainless Sony menus i've learnt to forget about, the only cons of this great little camera come from the fragility of its thin sensor stack and the lack of Sony warranty which is voided by the Kolari modification.  

[frame-it]

anyways...

 

https://www.kamera-express.nl/product/12270550

[bags27]

New stuff...sort of. not exactly "official"....

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by bags27

[bags27]

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If this is true, will Leica soon announce an SL2 to forestall potential owners from migrating to the Panasonic?

https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-s-s1r-preorder-start-in-january/

[dkCambridgeshire]

^^^^  Unlikely those outside Leica's design /marketing team and 'confidantes' know … but … consider that Panasonic have been working on a FF camera for at least 7 years and the L mount alliance was agreed / commenced 4 years ago …  thus Leica Camera AG have likely been aware of Panasonic's FF mirrorless design progress for at least 4 years … but maybe longer because they've collaborated with Panasonic for 17 years. Seems unlikely that Leica Camera AG would allow Panasonic to take the lead with FF mirrorless technology thus the inevitable SL2  (or whatever other model designation is decided) will likely be the equal of, or more sophisticated than, Panasonic's FF offerings. However, also bear in mind that Leica have 'badge engineered' Panasonic compact models into e.g. the D Lux 7 … thus would not be beyond the realms of possibility for Leica to do same with e.g. the S1R. However, whatever is eventually announced by Leica - whether a modified S1R or an upgraded SL601 - they've likely 'been in the can' for months … and Leica is aware of potential FF mirrorless camera sales losses to Pansonic's (and Sigma's) offerings. Leica has not let the grass grow under its feet since the SL 601 was first announced … thus hopefully they'll announce the SL601's successor in plenty of time for Leica aficionados to decide whether to opt for the S1R … or Leica's answer to same.

Furthermore, Photokina 8/5/2019  - 11/5/2019 is not so far away. 

dunk 

Edited November 21, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[IkarusJohn]

I'd be amazed if Leica allowed the SL to be rebadged as a Panasonic.  It is interesting, though, how the L mount Panasonics and Sigmas will fit with the Leica CL/TL & SL cameras.  There will need to be some market differentiation, and Leica must be very confident their L mount offerings will hold their place.  Perhaps it frees them from mass-market pressures and allows them to concentrate on their "niche".

[dkCambridgeshire]

9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I'd be amazed if Leica allowed the SL to be rebadged as a Panasonic.  It is interesting, though, how the L mount Panasonics and Sigmas will fit with the Leica CL/TL & SL cameras.  There will need to be some market differentiation, and Leica must be very confident their L mount offerings will hold their place.  Perhaps it frees them from mass-market pressures and allows them to concentrate on their "niche".

Would not be unprecedented if Leica badge engineered a Panasonic S1R.

Way back in 1976, Leica discontinued the SL2 because it was too expensive to manufacture … and they badge engineered / modified the Minolta XE-1 into the R3 … and other Minolta based SLRs followed.

The FF mirrorless marketplace is becoming crowded thus economies of scale are inevitable.   

dunk 

[IkarusJohn]

Interesting.

It's hard to work out how this market will unfold.  In full frame, there doesn't seem to be a huge weight or size advantage in mirrorless over DSLR - they're both large and the lenses mean they will need to be that size, and there's no real weight gain to be seen.  If anything, the L mount cameras seem to have cemented the place for the M camera, and the M10 makes it pretty clear what that will be, I think.

I'm not sure we can read too much into Leica's choices in the SLR times - they seem to have been pretty lost.

If we accept (at its most basic) that Sigma will produce cheaper L mount lenses and Panasonic cheaper L mount cameras under the licensing agreement, I guess that each of them will also largely ignore the Leica gestalt that less is more. Similarly, there will be compromises that Leica is not willing to take - lots of electronic doodackies, no micro-lenses on the sensors for M lenses etc.

I would think (guess) that Leica will hold its line with the SL2 (new sensor, new body etc, but still aimed at the same market) and the lenses (no compromises) in the belief that its recent success has been at aiming for the top of the market.  I know others will disagree that Leica has stayed in the top of the market because it doesn't have the most MP, or the latest tech (IBIS) etc, but that is really my point.

[lct]

R3 to R7 did not cannibalize another SLR Leica. A PanaLeica S1R would kill the SL i suspect.

[mmradman]

11 hours ago, lct said:

R3 to R7 did not cannibalize another SLR Leica. A PanaLeica S1R would kill the SL i suspect.

Not necessarily kill any future SL mark 2 but increase choice; two near identical cameras with different badges.

Soon we will hear that in every respect imaginable SL Mk2 is better camera than Panasonic original for no other reason but being adorned with red dot.

It will be interesting to see price difference between Pana or Leica branded equivalent cameras/batteries, XQD cards...

[jaapv]

I think that Leica should not worry. As with all other Leicas, if the customer has decided to buy "a Leica"  all rational arguments  fall by the wayside.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Likely more to the 'L mount alliance' than just the 'L mount' … e.g. unlikely that there would be two improved EVFs (for S1R and SL601 successor) sourced from different manufacturers … Panasonic keeping very quiet about same.

dunk  

[bags27]

Panasonic did announce that it will have the brightest EVF in the industry, without details. Sony has announced the brightest with details. Might Panasonic be buying from Sony?  Most interesting to me is whether the S1R and SL2 share a sensor..

[helged]

I would say that the FF Sigma Foveon is perhaps the most interesting of the upcoming L-mount bodies. Not as an all-singing-all-dancing system, but for a high-res, non-filtered, colour-vibrant alternative. With those Leica SL primes... Waiting Sigma, waiting! 

[BernardC]

On 11/22/2018 at 9:18 PM, bags27 said:

Panasonic did announce that it will have the brightest EVF in the industry, without details. Sony has announced the brightest with details. Might Panasonic be buying from Sony?  Most interesting to me is whether the S1R and SL2 share a sensor..

It's more likely that they all will be buying from Epson, who supply the SL's EVF display chip (as well as every other manufacturer's high-end EVF chips).

One interesting fact about the SL's EVF chip is that it doesn't have a higher pixel density, compared to other (lower-resolution) EVFs. It is actually physically bigger. This explains why other manufacturers haven't been able to match its resolution. It's easy enough for them to buy the chips from Epson, but they would need to make the whole viewfinder assembly bigger, especially the optics. They would also need to use higher quality components for the viewfinder, and assemble them with higher precision.

All that adds-up to higher production costs, which means higher retail prices. Leica can get away with charging more for a better viewfinder (and a stupendously strong aluminum body), but Sony/Canon/Nikon compete in a different market where every last penny counts.

 

I doubt the next SL will share a sensor with Panasonic, but their sensors will be fabricated using similar technology. Leica will optimize their sensor for M-lens compatibility (shallower wells, microlenses, etc.) and for colour response. Panasonic will probably optimize for sensitivity and for video.

As with the EVF example, Leica can afford to have "more noise at ISO 50,000" if it means better colour response in every other situation. Panasonic can't afford it because every internet comparison test will claim that they have a noisy sensor compared to Canon/Nikon/Sony. The people who publish these tests are colour-blind from staring at uncalibrated screens all day, but they can't let a tiny amount of sensor noise get past them without complaining, no matter how trivial (or even pleasing) the noise is.

[bags27]

I learned so much from this post: thanks a lot!

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[bags27]

Dr. Kaufmann is representing Leica in this interview, and lots of interesting things here.

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/5734204427/photokina-2018-interview-leica-sigma-and-panasonic-talk-l-mount-alliance

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by bags27