Can converted M10 B&W files match those of the MM1?

[rfnewb]

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Hi everyone. Recently purchased an MM1, in love with the flexibility of the files. I shoot 95% black and white, and this camera let’s me focus on my favorite images.

 

I got a potential trade in deal for an M10, and am attracted by the newer architecture, features, and reliability. I’m planning on going for it, but I want to find out if the M10 can still make great monochrome images.

 

Can the M10 files match - or even surpass - those of the MM1? I’m happy to learn whatever PP is needed to make this happen.

[Peter_S]

Here is my take on this, with limited experience (using/testing the Monochrom 246 and SL and owning the M9, and using b/w film a lot). I am sure the M10, just as the SL, can make good b/w images. The M9 already could too, for that matter.
The real issue would be: How do you know a converted image matches or surpasses a Monochrom image? You would need to have a Monochrom image in front of you to compare and match. In reality the Monochrom image will often - not always - have a tonality that is somewhat unique for monochrom sensors. You may be able to match that, but how do you know what to aim for when starting your conversion of a color image? I bet that for most of us a converted M10 image will look different from an MM image that would have been taken in the same situation. Maybe better, maybe worse, depending on whoever you will ask. And there are the occasional funky abberations that are so nicely absent in Monochrom images.

I have shot images with the Monochrom that I would have not been able to make look the same way than with any color camera. Maybe with the MM version next to me, with a loooot of fiddling around in C1/LR/whatever. Without a "calibration" image - no.

I would stick with the MM and get a CL or used TL for the occasional color itch. I am saving for an M Monochrom, not SL or M10.

Edit: what about the MM246, if high ISO and live view seem worthwhile reasons to upgrade?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Peter_S

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[adan]

Really depends on how one uses the benefits of the cameras.

 

The M10, in my experience, has less obvious noise at high ISOs (6400-10000) than the MM1.

 

At low ISOs, the blurring effect of de-bayerizing a color image (sharing luminance/brightness data between neighboring RGB pixels) still gives the MM an edge when it comes to clean textures and really crisp edges - sometimes. Even with the M10's extra megapixels.

 

OTOH, having color data in the image allows M10 images to be "filtered" after the fact, whereas on the MM1, one must put physical filters on the lens to get, for example, darker "red-filtered" skies.

 

The M10 has better dynamic range, once one is used to its files and knows how to dig out the shadow detail that is there. But if you like the punchy contrast of the MM images anyway, that won't matter so much.

 

I swapped my MM along with other items to get my first M10, because I mostly used the MM for its higher ISO capability (which the M10 matched or surpassed, IMHO) and because I shoot at least 50% in color, and a "one-trick pony" was not as useful to me.

 

I agree with Peter_S in that both can produce "very good" B&W pictures, but they won't necessarily be the same very good pictures without having an MM image to "copy from."

[cldp]

After upgrading my M240 to an M10, I did extensive side by side tests trying to decide if I should keep my M246 Monochrom. All the M10 images were converted to B&W in Adobe Camera Raw. The M10 and the M246 were very, very close but I kept the 246 because it was slightly but noticeably sharper in the finest detail.

 

I await an M10 Monochrom which could possibly have the image improvements that the previous Monochrom's have had over their color predecessors.

 

At times when I need to travel light, the Mono does stay at home since I have confidence in the M10 results. 

 

That said, I take pleasure in making the choice of B&W at the moment of capture. It's one more aspect of M photography that allows us to have a shooting workflow much like film was in days past.

[pibitller]

Currently for monochrome photo I use the M9 + yellow filter.
I convert the DNG files into Monochrome with the program DNGMonochrome 0.9.83 beta (undoes the Bayer RGB filter algorithm).
Then the processed with Lightroom.
The result is that you can recover the shadows without noise.
The difference with the MM1 is the ISO 160 sensitivity against the 320 of the MM1.

 

Conclusion: the noise is in de Bayer Filter.

 

Example: Leica M9 + summicron 35 asph + yelow filter

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by pibitller

[dkmoore]

I would think the yellow filter on the M9 adds little to no value. Are you using it as an ND filter?

[pibitller]

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In general it improves the contrast and illuminates the green tones

[pico]

In general it improves the contrast and illuminates the green tones

 

Presuming a monotone sensor, to enhance green tones I would think a green filter is best.

 

Regardless, modifying color channels from a color image gives better control over the whole image than a filter can. Filtering a native color image at the sensor (via a color filter on-lens) does not make sense to me. Perhaps it is my shortcoming, but I doubt it.

Edited September 3, 2018 by pico

[Jeff S]

Use of yellow/colored filters on the M9 has been debated before (including arguments regarding PP instead)....

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/242054-yellow-filter-on-an-m9-good-idea/

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/201981-color-filters-m9-bw/

 

Jeff

Edited September 4, 2018 by Jeff S

[Gregm61]

I recently picked up a really nice, used M246 to shoot alongside either my M262 or MP240. Since taking delivery of the M246 I haven't touched either "color" body as I figure out my shooting/post processing method with the M246 and (something I never thought I'd be doing again) purchased red and yellow filters for my lenses to use with this camera.

 

I'm also starting to shoot some film again with my M6 and M4 bodies and have sent some initial test rolls of TMAX 400 to this guy to process and scan to DNG format to see how they look and work, compared to the native digital files from the M246.

 

https://safe.menlosecurity.com/https://adrianbacon.com/?aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHJpYW5iYWNvbi5jb20v;ei6S23PlO5TJRoL1gjEZiMuG/4ZYX69uchRQBejYm1U=

[pibitller]

Presuming a monotone sensor, to enhance green tones I would think a green filter is best.

 

Regardless, modifying color channels from a color image gives better control over the whole image than a filter can. Filtering a native color image at the sensor (via a color filter on-lens) does not make sense to me. Perhaps it is my shortcoming, but I doubt it.

 

The light that passes through a certain color filter affects the Red sensors, Green sensors and blue sensors in a different way

[Gregm61]

Using a raw file from an M10 or other digital M other than the Monochrome, the best way to play with the color "filters" is the color channel tab in Adobe camera raw, where you can slide the green slider back & forth and watch the greens go from dark, dark green to white and every luminance in between. Greens, Blues, Orange and Red are the channel sliders that often give the most pronounced results and are the ones I'll use the most when converting files from my M262 and MP240. When converting I'll use the Monochrome option and click the "auto" setting in the color channel tab, then tweek the various colors to taste, primarily the blues to darken or lighten skies and the green to effect foliage.

 

Files from the M246 open with the tab greyed out as there's obviously no color information in those files to work with, hence the need to pick up some color filters to utilize on the lens as files are captured in-camera vs. afterwards on the computer.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Gregm61

[Jeff S]

Using a raw file from an M10 or other digital M other than the Monochrome, the best way to play with the color "filters" is the color channel tab in Adobe camera raw, where you can slide the green slider back & forth and watch the greens go from dark, dark green to white and every luminance in between. Greens, Blues, Orange and Red are the channel sliders that often give the most pronounced results and are the ones I'll use the most when converting files from my M262 and MP240. When converting I'll use the Monochrome option and click the "auto" setting in the color channel tab, then tweek the various colors to taste, primarily the blues to darken or lighten skies and the green to effect foliage.

 

Files from the M246 open with the tab greyed out as there's obviously no color information in those files to work with, hence the need to pick up some color filters to utilize as files are captured vs. afterwards on the computer.

We understand the use of color channels, and I use them, but it’s not without potential consequences.... read the links I provided.

 

Jeff

[Peter_S]

There is another thing to consider...simplicity. After using the Monochrom for several months I have converted very few images from my "color" images (M9, SL) to b/w. Its less from a lack of appreciation of b/w, but more from the appreciation for results from the Monochrom.
Yes, good b/w images are possibly, but the process of achieving them seems cumbersome (just as it was as having to make a full transition from b/w film).
Some will disagree and prefer the flexibility color RAWs and color channel give them for post-processing. Others prefer the process of shooting in b/w, with the mindset that this will be a b/w image, and you have to think in b/w, plus the accelerated workflow (particularly with filters), and the lack of artefacts.
Your position may be one or the other, but there is a good chance that you will miss the M9M in the long run...maybe not. Not few regret selling their Monochroms.

I have not checked prices, but how would keeping your M9M plus a good color camera (used TL/TL2/CL/Fuji whatever) compare to selling the M9M and getting the M10? If reliability is a concern (photo projects, travel) I would have two cameras anyways, with the backup being usable to almost the same extend of the main camera.





 

[Gregm61]

You definitely cannot argue the file quality of Monochrome dng’s and resolution advantage. It’s pretty incredible when you start scanning a file and see all that fine detail resolution that you don’t from an MP240 or M262 conversion.

[brill64]

Either monochrome beats the M10 hands down but saying that & depending what kind of glass you use, you can make a pretty decent b+w file conversion from the M10

[a.noctilux]

 

Can converted M10 B&W files match those of the MM1?

 

No for me, I use the two Ms for some years now.

 

 

I quote myself, here...

 

Post #6, in this thread:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/290013-m10-conversation-mm1mm2-or-wait-for-mm3/

 

 

 

For me, the most important when I use Monochrom is

"Black and White mindset"

 

That was something I 've learned to know and practice.

 

When I use "color M" like M10 I mainly have "Color mindset" and while taking picture I do have some scenes that I think better rendering in b&w,

later when those frames are converted to b&w, I'm not very satisfied, I don't know why.

 

And example of "b&w direct" different from "b&w converted from color file" :

 - using color filter to alter the "color rendering of b&w" picture

- when on Monochrom, I begin to master "color filter" with physical color filters (orange, red, green, etc.)

- when converted with in software color "filters", I'm lost with those multiple possibilities the software offered, so I have to "learn more"

- for me the two types of mindsets are not really interchangeable

 

With Monochrom, when I learned how to use color filter, in situation, I can check on the LCD how was the rendering with that particular filter.

If need another filter (color), I swapped in the field and not later in software.

 

That just me and my practice .

[magixaxeman]

Its worth thinking about how colour & monochrome sensors work when looking at this issue.

 

A colour sensor using the bayer array filter combines the output from 4 pixels ( 2x green. 1x red, 1x blue) to create a single coloured pixel, this reduces the colour sensors resolving power to approx 1/4 of the sensor size.

With the monochrome sensor every pixel is read without combining pixels so you get a full 24mp luminance read out from the sensor, meaning much greater resolution.

So the way I understand it a 24mp sensor is effectively reduced to the equivalent of a 6mp monochrome sensor, whereas the monochrome version gives you the full 24mp.

 

The benefits are obviously greater detail in all areas of your images as well as a much more robust performance when cropping images, where you could only go to say a 50% crop on your colour (M10) images you could find your self able to crop to say !00%-!50% on images shot on the M246.

 

My little brother recently discovered this, he moved from a Nikon D700 (12mp) to a Nikon D850 (45.7mp) and couldn't believe how much more detail was in his images as well as how much heavier he could crop them if he wished.

 

Personally I'm convinced that an M Mono is the way to go if you really want to shoot mono, the M10 does a fantastic job, but its just no contest when it comes to the resolving power of a true Monochrome camera.

[adan]

7 hours ago, magixaxeman said:

A colour sensor using the bayer array filter combines the output from 4 pixels ( 2x green. 1x red, 1x blue) to create a single coloured pixel, this reduces the colour sensors resolving power to approx 1/4 of the sensor size.

A bit of an exagerration, there.

De-bayerizing (or demosaicing) an image does not simply combine 4 pixels to make one pixel. That is a whole different process (called "pixel binning") which has little to do with the color per se, and a lot to do with reducing noise at high ISOs

https://www.ubergizmo.com/what-is/pixel-binning-camera/

Demosaicing does exchange some data between neighboring pixels (and more than just a specific 4 - any one pixel will borrow some color data from the EIGHT (or more) surrounding pixels - above, below, either side, touching corners). Through mathematics (algorithms) that are much more complex than just adding pixels together and dividing by 4 - Fourier transformations and deconvolutions.

https://stanford.edu/class/ee367/reading/Demosaicing_ICASSP04.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deconvolution

It does not reduce resolution by much (and certainly not 400%) so much as it introduces "artifacts" in the finest details - still sharp, just jagged or discontinuous in places, or forming aliasing (which a Monochrom may also do, just less frequently and only in finer details).

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