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Nikon Z6, Z7 and Leica SL ..... (merged)


thighslapper
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Wouldn't that depend on the system users are locked into by their lenses? I don't know about you, but I tend to look at lenses first and cameras second. Features are mostly irrelevant, nobody produces a bad sensor, it all comes down to the lens -and, admittedly, - ergonomics.

With the comments posted here and elsewhere it seems like people are willing to change systems frequently as new technology is incorporated in the camera bodies.

 

For me it’s all about lenses, which is why I stuck with Nikon for so long and only switched to SL after using M lenses on the side for a while. I can’t see jumping to a new system and having to buy new lenses but I am probably not in alignment with the target market.

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I don't know about you, but I tend to look at lenses first and cameras second. Features are mostly irrelevant, nobody produces a bad sensor, it all comes down to the lens -and, admittedly, - ergonomics.

Also for me, VF and focus experience, menu and control interface simplicity, and weather sealing.

 

Jeff

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There will probably be a techart available if they can make it work. Nikon doesn’t open source or license the lens mount.

 

That said, I wouldn’t want to use a techart for my M lenses because they have floating elements and the techart method of focusing doesn’t account for this. Also the experience is poor in my opinion compared to using the M lenses with manual focusing.

I would certainly prefer to keep using my M bodies for the M lenses but sometimes it would be useful to be able to AF. Also I like using EVFs and the one on the M is a pain. May be I should just dump my M and use a CL...

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Wouldn't that depend on the system users are locked into by their lenses? I don't know about you, but I tend to look at lenses first and cameras second. Features are mostly irrelevant, nobody produces a bad sensor, it all comes down to the lens -and, admittedly, - ergonomics.

 

Not for me - I have used for 4 years now all my Canon EF lenses with adapter on my Sony A7R (given that I am okay with manual focusing or slower AF performance). Never even owned any kind of E-mount lens! Also using M lenses with adapter on the same Sony. And I might again do this with the Z7 in case there is a benefit for rangefinder lenses with the Nikon sensor compared to the Sony FF MLC sensor. 

Times to just stick to just one brand environment are gone with the introduction of MLC. 

 

And there are quite some differences between FF sensors on the market actually. Sony on top with resolution and DR, Nikon nearly on par, and Canon more at the mediocre performing end. Leica's FF sensors have a good DR, but only 24 MP.......okay for some, exclusion criteria for others. 

Edited by Martin B
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And let's wait what Panasonic comes up with, and possibly a Leica SL2. I would be quite surprised if there were no exchange of technology between Leica and Panasonic regarding FF mirrorless cameras and lenses.

 

It cannot be a coincidence that, as soon as Nikon introduces their first FF EVIL, Panasonic rumours start to appear.

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And let's wait what Panasonic comes up with, and possibly a Leica SL2. I would be quite surprised if there were no exchange of technology between Leica and Panasonic regarding FF mirrorless cameras and lenses.

 

It cannot be a coincidence that, as soon as Nikon introduces their first FF EVIL, Panasonic rumours start to appear.

Rumours are easy, Canon came out with real announcement.

Photokina this year is going to be very interesting, still plenty of time for Leica or Panasonic to surprise us..

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And let's wait what Panasonic comes up with, and possibly a Leica SL2. I would be quite surprised if there were no exchange of technology between Leica and Panasonic regarding FF mirrorless cameras and lenses.

 

It cannot be a coincidence that, as soon as Nikon introduces their first FF EVIL, Panasonic rumours start to appear.

 

 

But why would Leica Camera AG potentially jeopardise its Leica FF mirrorless sales by cooperating with / allowing Panasonic to market a Panny FF camera in a potentially crowded FF marketplace? 

 

Maybe Panasonic will / could use the 'L' mount but maybe not for a FF still camera.

 

The 'L' mount is likely the only common ground and could be utilised with an existing Panasonic chassis?  

 

dunk 

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Panasonic has announced a proprietary mount, they are clearly not aiming to integrate into the L system.

Given their persistence with MFT, from which Leica withdrew, that would be in character.

But nothing would prevent them from positioning a system below the SL and above the CL. Which aims straight at Nikon and Canon. Especially if they are more biased towards Video capture.

 

Leica's advantage would be access to Panasonic's industry-leading stabilization technology, plus digital components, Panasonic continues to profit by Leica's optical and design expertise.

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For Panasonic to go it alone and develop own range of FF lenses without any compatibility to let's say Leica FF L lenses would make no sense, having option to mount own MTF lenses in crop mode would suck big time.  Both Nikon and Canon have hundreds of F and EF lenses to fall back to until road maps for launch of new generation of mirrorless optics are fully realised.  

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With all the discussion here and elsewhere about new cameras, new lens mounts and new lenses I started thinking about how many lenses people actually own or use. The argument made for switching systems always seems to include a comparison of the size of the ecosystems but rarely specifies which lenses people actually intend to use. Most of these discussions are driven by amateurs (not shooting professionally for a living) so I just cannot understand the relevance of a huge lens ecosystem.

 

In the Leica M world I tend to think people own and use a lot for lenses. The compatibility over such a long period of time and the revisions and changes to rendering style in the classic prime focal lengths I think drives this. Leica M owners also likely have more discretionary spending ability (I am only saying this because of the cost of the equipment) so that may result in more lenses owned as well.

 

With Nikon having the F mount useable for almost 60 years and a huge range of lenses available, including specialty ones, I might expect to see the same but I don’t. The Nikon shooters I’ve known, and I’ve known a lot, have either had kit lenses, a “travel zoom” like a 24-120 along with a prime or two, or they’ve been pros who shoot the “holy trinity” (14-24, 24-70, 70-200) and rent anything else needed.

 

The most lenses I’ve owned at one time for a single system was: Nikon 58 f/1.4, Nikon 105 macro, Nikon 200 f/2, Nikon 24-70 f/2.8, Nikon 14-24 f/2.8. I also had two teleconverters and a flash unit and at one time the 70-200 f/2.8.

 

With that said, why would I care about the entire Nikon lens catalog, including backwards compatibility, if I won’t own or use all those lenses? Sure, it’s nice to know I could rent a 600 f/4 if needed but that’s so rare and expensive that I may as well rent the camera too.

 

I now have an SL system with the 16-35, 24-90, 90-280 and 50 along with some M lenses, an MP240 and a Sony RX1. I would buy an SL teleconverter set and a Macro but probably not much else for this system.

 

Does anyone actually know a photographer who is considering jumping around from Nikon or Sony or Canon or Leica or M43 or Fuji or Hasselblad who truly uses or owns a large variety of lenses when they jump to a new system? I bet outside the M world, the average lens use is four or less and the specialty lenses don’t get bought or used.

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For Panasonic to go it alone and develop own range of FF lenses without any compatibility to let's say Leica FF L lenses would make no sense, having option to mount own MTF lenses in crop mode would suck big time.  Both Nikon and Canon have hundreds of F and EF lenses to fall back to until road maps for launch of new generation of mirrorless optics are fully realised.  

I don't make Panasonic's executive decisions, nor am I privy to them. But this is what is leaking to the rumours sites. FWIIW.

 

However, they went into MFT with their own range of lenses, together with that other maverick, Olympus. Nothing out of character here.

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I don't make Panasonic's executive decisions, nor am I privy to them. But this is what is leaking to the rumours sites. FWIIW.

 

However, they went into MFT with their own range of lenses, together with that other maverick, Olympus. Nothing out of character here.

No doubt Panasonic and Olympus reign supreme in the MTF systems.

I think Panasonic full frame rumour is a weak one until announcements on Photokina that is. 

 

Somebody already mentioned that Leica is not strong business to compete in rapid development and launch of ever more sophisticated electronic devices and should concentrate on its own core strength of lens development and manufacture.  No doubt Leica cooperation with Panasonic was beneficial in developing Q, SL and CL cameras, so it would make perfect sense, IMHO, to cooperate with electronics power house for the future full frame mirrorless bodies.  Sometimes such cooperation mean sharing technology, like lens mount for instance.  No doubt every time Panasonic sells Leica branded MTF lens made in Japan Leica makes money and everybody loves to own and use Leica branded lens.    

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..................................

Sometimes such cooperation mean sharing technology, like lens mount for instance..........................

I doubt L mount compatibility is a particularly important part of co-operation between Leica and Panasonic. Leica's owner base will not be big enough to make a difference to Panasonic's needs for a viable market, and, as already said, Leica would be uncomfortable with Panasonic as a direct lens competitor. But the mechanical connection between lens and body is hardly a high tech element. Optical design, opto-mechanics, electronics and related firmware would be much more important, and Leica and Panasonic would both gain from co-operation in all these areas.

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With all the discussion here and elsewhere about new cameras, new lens mounts and new lenses I started thinking about how many lenses people actually own or use.

 

In my case, I typically use three per system: a wide (24-28mm equivalent), a fast normal, and a short tele (75-90mm equivalent).

I own more than that, but that's the go-to kit for 95% of situations.

 

I know a successful wedding photographer who uses two lenses, a 35 and a 50.

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Rumours are easy, Canon came out with real announcement.

...............................................

True: ever since the SL came out there have been endless rumours of Nikon and Canon mirrorless offerings. Since then we've had the CL, the T and the TL2, and a few Sonys and still endless Nikon and Canon rumours.

 

Oh, have Nikon and Canon, finally, made an announcement?

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I made a prediction in 2011 on a forum (possibly here, possibly another) that in another decade DSLRs would be dead in the water.

I still hold to that now, because both Nikon and Canon have bitten the bullet and chosen to cannibalise their own DSLR sales. I suspect this is one reason (fear for their own DSLRs) they have both taken so long to produce a competitive mirrorless product, and it may be declining DSLR sales that has prompted them both to do it now. I'm sure they could have done it earlier if they wished.

 

Over the next three years, the (genuine) charms of the OVF will, I think, fall in the most important market (that of the amateur buyer) before the charms of the smaller, quieter Nikon Z and Canon R (and Sony A7)*.

 

Anyone care to take a counter view on the market share of the DSLR in 2021?

 

*Edit: which leads to the interesting thought that anyone who wants a FF mirrorless camera with an OVF (all those Nikon and Canon refugees) might now buy a Leica M!

Edited by LocalHero1953
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In my case, I typically use three per system: a wide (24-28mm equivalent), a fast normal, and a short tele (75-90mm equivalent).

I own more than that, but that's the go-to kit for 95% of situations.

 

I know a successful wedding photographer who uses two lenses, a 35 and a 50.

I’m pretty similar. Two M lenses have kept me pretty happy, a 35 and a 50. I have four lenses for the SL but I typically only take one or two with me at a time.

 

I bet this is typical of most ILC users so the constant changing of systems and the surrounding discussion is more baffling. It reminds me a bit of allegiance to automobile companies.. People I know argue over the halo products and drive the entry level or mid range.

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