Medium Format Decisions

[kparseg]

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Well, I use both the S007 and a Fuji GFX and I can assure you that the Fuji medium format lenses come damn close, all of them, consistently. The Fuji 32-64 zoom is even better than the Leica S zoom, in my view.  

$20k vs. $7k. Not sure how 1% difference in image quality justifies such a huge difference in price. I haven't directly compared that but GF110 may even be better than Leica S100. 

 

The S008 that's rumored to cost $28k is just unacceptable in 2018-2019, especially when GFX100s will be around $8k or so. How's Leica going to attract new customers with these price is just beyond my understanding. Whereas both GFX 50s and especially X1D were sold out in many stores and were the most successful business decisions of Fuji and Hasselblad. 

[geetee1972]

$20k vs. $7k. Not sure how 1% difference in image quality justifies such a huge difference in price. I haven't directly compared that but GF110 may even be better than Leica S100. 

 

The S008 that's rumored to cost $28k is just unacceptable in 2018-2019, especially when GFX100s will be around $8k or so. How's Leica going to attract new customers with these price is just beyond my understanding. Whereas both GFX 50s and especially X1D were sold out in many stores and were the most successful business decisions of Fuji and Hasselblad. 

 

 

I think you have a point about the Fuji, but the X1D wasn't 'sold out' it was just not shipped; Hasselblad had no end of problems at launch with bugs and problems which is why you couldn't get the camera. From what I've read, the X1D is not a successful product, a case of over design and under achievement in terms of performance. Most reviews I've seen or read are pretty negative and the decision to go with leaf shutters was a huge error in my view as it limits the option to adapt lenses (unless you're prepared to use the electronic shutter).

 

But I agree that the cost differential between the Fuji and the S, as well as between the Fuji and the Phase One and H6D is going to be an increasing problem for these manufacturers. Pro shooters don't tend to care much about 'brand' so the cachet of Leica as a brand is almost irrelevant. Fortunately the S is a very capable camera but then so is the Fuji.

 

Interestingly, the price I paid for my S with the, albeit second hand lens, was only about £1000 more than for the Fuji with lens. Yes I finnessed the deal with my local dealer, who basically gave me full credit on a couple of recent purchases and in doing so reduced the S price to about £7k and the lens was second hand, so this isn't an RRP comparisson.

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[Jeff S]

Early X1D reviews were indeed negative, but a host of firmware updates addressed many of those complaints. More recent assessments have been far more favorable. The remaining issues will require hardware fixes, which presumably will be addressed in the XD2. I think the fact that Hasselblad has listened and addressed many issues has made more folks receptive to the next generation. But, like Leica, lens roadmap delays seem all too common.

 

Personally, I loved the feel and ergonomics of the X1D when I tested it. And the files were superb. I’ll surely check out the X2D, provided it comes sooner than later, and if those promised lenses (like the zoom) actually get to market.

 

Jeff

[BernardC]

Interestingly, the price I paid for my S with the, albeit second hand lens, was only about £1000 more than for the Fuji with lens.

Same here, with a new 006 two years ago (before the Fuji and Hasselblad were announced).

The street price of the S system is much lower than the list price, for whatever reason. It may even be Leica's S sales strategy: introduce each model at a huge price, sell a few while stocks are tight, and then quietly lower the price after a year.

[Jeff S]

Same here, with a new 006 two years ago (before the Fuji and Hasselblad were announced).

The street price of the S system is much lower than the list price, for whatever reason. It may even be Leica's S sales strategy: introduce each model at a huge price, sell a few while stocks are tight, and then quietly lower the price after a year.

Actually, after some initial reductions (about the time Pentax introduced their MF digital 645 at a bargain), the S007 price was raised $2050 in May, 2017, and another $1k this year, despite even more competition from Fuji and Hasselblad. Deals can be found, however.

 

The S006 price was temporarily reduced significantly, presumably to clear some stock, when the S007 was announced. It was later raised back, but great deals emerged later when the AF lens motor fiasco was in full swing.

 

Jeff

Edited August 24, 2018 by Jeff S

[kparseg]

I think you have a point about the Fuji, but the X1D wasn't 'sold out' it was just not shipped; Hasselblad had no end of problems at launch with bugs and problems which is why you couldn't get the camera. From what I've read, the X1D is not a successful product, a case of over design and under achievement in terms of performance. Most reviews I've seen or read are pretty negative and the decision to go with leaf shutters was a huge error in my view as it limits the option to adapt lenses (unless you're prepared to use the electronic shutter).

 

But I agree that the cost differential between the Fuji and the S, as well as between the Fuji and the Phase One and H6D is going to be an increasing problem for these manufacturers. Pro shooters don't tend to care much about 'brand' so the cachet of Leica as a brand is almost irrelevant. Fortunately the S is a very capable camera but then so is the Fuji.

 

Interestingly, the price I paid for my S with the, albeit second hand lens, was only about £1000 more than for the Fuji with lens. Yes I finnessed the deal with my local dealer, who basically gave me full credit on a couple of recent purchases and in doing so reduced the S price to about £7k and the lens was second hand, so this isn't an RRP comparisson.

I've seen a few amazing deals on S bodies and lenses but I had some other purchases I needed to make. Like what you're saying, if there is a great deal on Leica S, I'd surely consider that. Not as the main body but as a backup it'll be fantastic. But these deals are not that common, unfortunately. 

[kparseg]

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Same here, with a new 006 two years ago (before the Fuji and Hasselblad were announced).

The street price of the S system is much lower than the list price, for whatever reason. It may even be Leica's S sales strategy: introduce each model at a huge price, sell a few while stocks are tight, and then quietly lower the price after a year.

It may well be that Leica doesn't care much about the market share but the sale revenue. So, if Leica can get let's say $1M from selling 50 bodies vs. 100 bodies, it makes sense to sell fewer bodies and get the same amount of money. 

But in this case, Leica doesn't attract many new customers. And we know that money is in lenses, accessories and repairs. But I'm sure Leica knows much more about market than I do. I truly wish Leica to be successful.

[BernardC]

the S007 price was raised $2050 in May, 2017, and another $1k this year,

Wasn't one of those increases only in the US?

The list price is one thing, and the price that a Leica dealer will offer you is another. There are lots of places where you can get "demo" S gear, with full warranties and no sign of ever being taken out of the box, at a fraction of list price. It's so common, and so prevalent in every region of the world, that it's hard to imagine that these are just coincidences.

 

The most likely reason is that Leica is doing old-fashioned profit maximization, selling at list to a few customers, and at a discount to others.

[alan.y]

Wasn't one of those increases only in the US?

The list price is one thing, and the price that a Leica dealer will offer you is another. There are lots of places where you can get "demo" S gear, with full warranties and no sign of ever being taken out of the box, at a fraction of list price. It's so common, and so prevalent in every region of the world, that it's hard to imagine that these are just coincidences.

Hence "Deals can be found, however." Jeff S has been saying exactly what you're saying--including the bit about "demo" gear sold at discount--ad nauseum.

[Jeff S]

Exactly.

 

Jeff

[kparseg]

Hence "Deals can be found, however." Jeff S has been saying exactly what you're saying--including the bit about "demo" gear sold at discount--ad nauseum.

Where do you find those demo? Are they available at B&H, Adorama, Amazon? You're talking like Leica advertises these bodies at a fraction of the original cost and I'm against getting a great deal? I saw some deals only on ebay and Amazon, but those were rare. 

 

I used to have S2 and S006 with 70CS, 100S and 120CS. I can afford paying the full price for any Leica. I just don't feel it's the fair price. 

[ropo54]

Speak with a Leica store. There are often certified pre-owned units (come with a 1 year warranty), or superb condition preowned items.

 

On occasion, I have seen them at Adorama or B&H.  

 

Best to call them, as they are not always advertised. I have seen various certified advertised certified pre-owned 007s in the range of $12,5000-$13,000.  There is also a privately pre-owned S007 for sale on Fred Miranda in the $8200 range, which (I believe) "alan.y"  from our forum has for sale.

Edited August 25, 2018 by ropo54

[Jeff S]

Where do you find those demo? Are they available at B&H, Adorama, Amazon? You're talking like Leica advertises these bodies at a fraction of the original cost and I'm against getting a great deal? I saw some deals only on ebay and Amazon, but those were rare.

 

I used to have S2 and S006 with 70CS, 100S and 120CS. I can afford paying the full price for any Leica. I just don't feel it's the fair price.

Various Leica dealers have had good deals (used, demo, etc)... one needs to be resourceful and call around (a full list of dealers is on the Leica site). I would only buy from a reputable dealer, with warranty.

 

One popular dealer became frustrated dealing with Leica on behalf of his S customers.... breakdowns, service delays, poor communications, lost items.... and has since retreated somewhat from active S sales. But others exist, sometimes small dealers, other times large ones. Leica Miami, for instance, has been known to have or find such opportunities. As always, timing and luck helps, but being persistent in calling around is key. And one can’t be shy about asking or seeing if there’s room to negotiate.

 

If the rumored S3 emerges, it will be interesting to see how that influences the used S market. I would imagine that the lens AF motor fix has already had some stabilizing effect.

 

Jeff

Edited August 25, 2018 by Jeff S

[BernardC]

Where do you find those demo? Are they available at B&H, Adorama, Amazon?

 

Like Jeff said, through official Leica dealers.

[BigBabyEarl]

What do you guys think is a fair price for a demo 007 today?

[Jeff S]

What do you guys think is a fair price for a demo 007 today?

$10,888 for a new one with warranty at Popflash. They have to call it used mint to discount, but it’s unused...

 

https://www.popflash.com/10804FF

 

Jeff

[ropo54]

That is a pretty good price for a new S 007, with a 1 year warranty.

Perhaps Leica is being more aggressive in moving 007 stock with the coming of the 008.

Rob

[kparseg]

Speak with a Leica store. There are often certified pre-owned units (come with a 1 year warranty), or superb condition preowned items.

 

On occasion, I have seen them at Adorama or B&H.  

 

Best to call them, as they are not always advertised. I have seen various certified advertised certified pre-owned 007s in the range of $12,5000-$13,000.  There is also a privately pre-owned S007 for sale on Fred Miranda in the $8200 range, which (I believe) "alan.y"  from our forum has for sale.

Cool, thanks for your suggestions.

[Jeff S]

That is a pretty good price for a new S 007, with a 1 year warranty.

Perhaps Leica is being more aggressive in moving 007 stock with the coming of the 008.

Rob

It likely reflects the volume that Popflash was able to purchase from Leica, as they typically do based on projected interest for various items. There are a lot of other ‘used mint’ listings, even more recent products.

 

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[ropo54]

KParseg:

If you become serious, call Josh @ Leica Miami. He is very good at sourcing Leica. 

Rob