Leica M10-P with level gauge, touchscreen and a much quieter shutter

[microview]

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Hmm, sell M10 to gain horizontal level which I find very useful and a delight on the CL (as well as the Q) would cost, I think, about £3.5k. Touch screen of no interest and screw head rather than logo? No thank you.

Edited August 22, 2018 by microview

[ramarren]

Fujifilm would probably be pleased to put you straight.  

 

 

What do I care what Fujifilm has to say about it? They're not Leica, and they don't know anything about the Leica hardware. Really...

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[schattenundlicht]

 

I also find the esthetics of this cover screw rather misguided. At least, the slit orientation of the screw should be straight horizontal in all cameras, which could be achieved by narrow tolerances on screw and thread.

 

The screw on my M-P240 is exactly vertical which I quite like.

Well Leica could offer horizontal slits as standard on the M10-P and an optional upgrade „M10-Pv“ with vertical slit for the meagre surcharge of xyz € (let yor imagination roam freely here).

[Probus5002]

There is nothing on M10P that could not have been included with the original M10.  The mid-life refresh is a feature on so many products and in the design phase they must take into consideration what can be held over for the refresh.  The spirit level was useful on the 240MP when using a tripod but I haven't missed it on the M10 because I usually have the screen covered by the half case.  Also, the half case protects the screen, reducing the need for the sapphire glass (not included with the M10P). The 240MP had a larger buffer over the 240 which was a significant improvement.  A quieter, dampened shutter appears to be the only significant upgrade on the M10P.  I look forward to seeing one in a Leica Boutique.  I suspect I shall keep the M10 until the M11P is released in 4 years time.   

[rodders]

Good review by that Kai fellow on YouTube as well. Talks about the touchscreen but actually doesn't use it at all. Raves about how silent it is though.

[Triumph]

 

Hi

I bought my M10 last October and think that camera is wonderful and the best Leica ever. I think there are areas that could be improved such as a flash socket like M4, and a way to trigger a flash with TTL with the EVF fitted ....important for macro photographyI guess that could be done using the WiFi already in the camera via an iPhone or by building an accessory that provides two hot shoes from the one on the camera (one for flash one for EVF. These would addd real benefit to the M10 as a true system camera. It would be nice to have the rear screen covered in the heavy duty  glass as used on the M P 240......but I am not sure that the extra cost would warrant an upgrade. 

 

I believe that the M10P will benefit by having a level in the camera for super wide angle lenses but I am not sure it is a really strong need and I use 15mm, 21mm  and 28mm lenses without too much problem. The rest of the stuff for the extra 500€uros is a joke in my view. They remove the red dot, which I like and they tell us the shutter is making so little noise but the tests posted here suggest that the difference is marginal. I think this M10P is going to be a dog. 

 

 

Elsewhere I have seen that the M10 is so good that it is hard to see how Leica can add meaningful upgrades and I tend to agree.  I hear the rumour that the next step may be to add motors to the lenses for autofocus and aperture and if that can be done without increasing lens size and allowing backward compatibility of existing M lenses then great  ...otherwise what exactly are meaningful upgrades to M10...the ISO range is good if not excellent, rangefinder focussing is excellent, the shutter speeds are superb, continuous mode shooting is perfect and with the recent firmware upgrade a slow mode is available, memory size is correct as is battery size. The shutter noise beats a Nikon or Canon. I suppose some wedding photographers have come to like the Sony capability to focus eyeballs but I am not sure that is vital if you take several shots with even a Noctilux wide-open and use Lightroom to select the good ones!. 

 

I think the M10P is not going set the world on fire and I hope that does not mean that Leica will revert to issuing different leathers, and titanium finishes etc as Hermes did when they owned the company.

[wattsy]

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I hope that does not mean that Leica will revert to issuing different leathers, and titanium finishes etc as Hermes did when they owned the company.

 

 

Hermès have never owned the company – I believe that the largest holding they had was 36%. Leica have issued many different special editions since Hermès sold their stake over a decade ago – including at least two this year alone.

Edited August 22, 2018 by wattsy

[AlanJW]

I have decided to trade my M10 for 10P.  In fact, my dealer said he would have one for me shortly.  The reasons have nothing to do with "need."  The have to do with "want."  I want a black body (I have silver now) and I like the quiet shutter and the touchscreen is appealing.  You can call me nuts and I would probably agree.  So I am not joining the debate on all the rational reasons not to do what I am doing because I will lose that debate.  But whoever said that rationality was the only way with camera gear?

[Jeff S]

And we thank you, Alan. Leica sales are good for all.

 

Jeff

[Ouroboros]

What do I care what Fujifilm has to say about it? They're not Leica, and they don't know anything about the Leica hardware. Really...

It isn't what they 'say', it's what they do!

 

Never mind, carry on.

[microview]

Oh no: not him again! Twenty+ minutes to tell us (a) touch screen ( horizontal level indicator © more quiet shutter.

Edited August 22, 2018 by microview

[IkarusJohn]

So, the MP very gets released, and the forum is on fire because ... the features weren’t included in the original M10, the slot in the screw isn’t horizontal or vertical and the shutter noise has changed. One user has even announced he”s finished with Leica (he? I assume so).

 

Where’s the popcorn?

 

I can understand people wanting the level brought back. It’s useful on the SL. I think I understand its omission, though - I’ve been using my tripod a bit recently, and I’ve noticed that the spirit level bubbles on my Arca Swiss head are more accurate than the electronic level built into the SL. Any one else noticed this?

[Rupert Greenwell]

So, the MP very gets released, and the forum is on fire because ... the features weren’t included in the original M10, the slot in the screw isn’t horizontal or vertical and the shutter noise has changed. One user has even announced he”s finished with Leica (he? I assume so).

Where’s the popcorn?

I can understand people wanting the level brought back. It’s useful on the SL. I think I understand its omission, though - I’ve been using my tripod a bit recently, and I’ve noticed that the spirit level bubbles on my Arca Swiss head are more accurate than the electronic level built into the SL. Any one else noticed this?

I am glad that you have mentioned the level being inaccurate on the SL, I find this too,however careful I am, the Leica Q is far worse !

I thought that it was just me but I am relieved that it is not. I have more or less given up using it.

[Keith_W]

So, the MP very gets released, and the forum is on fire because ... the features weren’t included in the original M10, the slot in the screw isn’t horizontal or vertical and the shutter noise has changed. One user has even announced he”s finished with Leica (he? I assume so).

 

This month marks a whole year of Leica ownership for me and perhaps 25 years in this hobby where I have owned cameras from nearly every major manufacturer except the Fuji system or M4/3. I bought into the M system because it is the most compact full frame camera with the best lenses. Not because I buy into the Leica mystique, or because I love rangefinders. For me, the rangefinder is an inconvenience I put up with - a trade off so I can gain the benefits of small size and high quality. In this year, and on this forum, I have learnt a lot. 

 

Leica originally gained its reputation by being innovative and pushing the envelope. Where is that Leica in 2018? They are trying to sell the TL and SL system, that's where. For me, both are unattractive propositions. The TL because of its small sensor and limited lens selection, and the SL because of its sheer ugliness and the absurdly gigantic size of SL lenses. So I tolerate the M system, where I sometimes dream openly on this forum that Leica will get rid of the rangefinder and include an EVF. But no - M owners are a different breed, and it is apparent from this announcement that Leica thinks so too. 

 

M owners seem to be overwhelmingly conservative, think that the pinnacle of M cameras were made in the 1950's, and that even offering the option of a aperture priority on an M film camera is heresy. There is no other photo forum on this planet where you will get shouted down if you say that you would like to see a battery door on an M camera. For everyone else, progress is welcomed.

 

So it was somewhat embarrassing to see the M10-P announcement on DPreview among other new camera announcements. If people think that the Panasonic LX100 Mk2 is "only" an incremental upgrade over the LX100, what would they think about the M10-P's measly suite of upgrades over the M10? The price difference between the M10-P and M10 alone is enough to buy yourself an LX100, and what have you actually gained? Nobody here seems to care about the touch screen (I certainly don't), nor could even the most crazy Leicaphile claim that deletion of the red dot is worth hundreds of dollars, so the only real gains are the slightly quieter shutter and level gauge. 

Pardon me if I sound rather underwhelmed. But then, I was kind of expecting it. 

[IkarusJohn]

This month marks a whole year of Leica ownership for me and perhaps 25 years in this hobby where I have owned cameras from nearly every major manufacturer except the Fuji system or M4/3. I bought into the M system because it is the most compact full frame camera with the best lenses. Not because I buy into the Leica mystique, or because I love rangefinders. For me, the rangefinder is an inconvenience I put up with - a trade off so I can gain the benefits of small size and high quality. In this year, and on this forum, I have learnt a lot. 

 

Leica originally gained its reputation by being innovative and pushing the envelope. Where is that Leica in 2018? They are trying to sell the TL and SL system, that's where. For me, both are unattractive propositions. The TL because of its small sensor and limited lens selection, and the SL because of its sheer ugliness and the absurdly gigantic size of SL lenses. So I tolerate the M system, where I sometimes dream openly on this forum that Leica will get rid of the rangefinder and include an EVF. But no - M owners are a different breed, and it is apparent from this announcement that Leica thinks so too. 

 

M owners seem to be overwhelmingly conservative, think that the pinnacle of M cameras were made in the 1950's, and that even offering the option of a aperture priority on an M film camera is heresy. There is no other photo forum on this planet where you will get shouted down if you say that you would like to see a battery door on an M camera. For everyone else, progress is welcomed.

 

So it was somewhat embarrassing to see the M10-P announcement on DPreview among other new camera announcements. If people think that the Panasonic LX100 Mk2 is "only" an incremental upgrade over the LX100, what would they think about the M10-P's measly suite of upgrades over the M10? The price difference between the M10-P and M10 alone is enough to buy yourself an LX100, and what have you actually gained? Nobody here seems to care about the touch screen (I certainly don't), nor could even the most crazy Leicaphile claim that deletion of the red dot is worth hundreds of dollars, so the only real gains are the slightly quieter shutter and level gauge. 

Pardon me if I sound rather underwhelmed. But then, I was kind of expecting it. 

 

 

Hi Keith,

 

I think that is a little unfair, or perhaps unrealistic (please, don't take that as a personal insult - what I mean is your context is not quite right).

 

First, the M system is all about manual lenses and the optical rangefinder.  That's what it was 65 years ago when the M3 was released and that is all it has ever been. Leica isn't going to change that, I don't believe.  Despite claims and predictions here, there will never be an AF M camera, nor do I believe that Leica will succumb to an EVF M (and I've had my fair try) - we get a clip on EVF and that's it.  Why?  Because that's the way Leica wants it, and it has kept Leica profitable where others have struggled.  It also maintains compatibility with every M mount, R mount and LTM mount lens (the latter two with adapters) that Leica has made for the last 70 years.

 

It's a rangefinder - it only works with manual lenses (of very fine quality) between the range of 28-75mm (for me).  You can go wider and longer, and use R lenses with the EVF, but that will always be a compromise.

 

Second, I appreciate that you have only been a Leica user for a year, so you may not know this - Leica's product release is generally as follows - it releases a new M camera, designated M(n+1).  It is genuinely new, with improvements on the previous model.  In the past, it has been as banal as new framelines (M2 & M4), a built in meter (M5), back to no meter (M4-2), meter again and TTL (M6), general upgrade (M7 - can't recall what the upgrade was), MP (an aperture priority film camera, still available), then no meter again (M-A).  For digital, you probably know what the improvements were - APS-H (M8), full frame CCD (M9), CMOS (M240), M10 (smaller, no video etc etc).  These are the new cameras, with red dots.

 

Leica then releases the P version, typically without the red dot, with the traditional script on the top deck, gorilla or sapphire glass and some other small improvement on the base model (not much on the M9, doubled buffer on the M240 and quieter shutter, touch screen etc on the M10).  These are not new cameras as such, as they are still fundamentally the original camera as issued.  It's the removal of the red dot we all know is coming.  After the P version, we have had Monochrom, M-D, simplified (M-E & M262) and latterly Special Editions.  The last tend to come late - Hermes, Johnny Ives, M Edition 60, Zagato etc.

 

So, I don't think the M10-P is even remotely "embarrassing" for you, me or Leica.  It's what they've done consistently since the M9 (and they did actually also issue an upgrade to the M8, the M8.2) - as their product cycle runs for so long (thankfully), they extend their sales of the same fundamental tech.  And it works for them.  I'm not sure that stigmatising M owners as "overwhelmingly conservative" or that they think the "pinnacle of M cameras were made in the 1950s" will help you with your enjoyment of your M camera.  I doubt you'll get much wisdom about M camera use on DPreview - posters there seem more interested in Sony & Nikon, if I understand them correctly.  And very good cameras they are too (apparently) - just nor for me.

 

I've owned and used cameras pretty much continuously since the mid 1960s (bellows rangefinder, Canonet rangefinder, various film Nikons, Minoxes, Olympuses and Hasselblads and, more recently, digital Sonys and Nikons).  I've been a Leica user since 2010, when I bought my M9.  When the typical DPreview Canon-Nikon-Sony user sees a new Leica, they respond to what the Leica doesn't have (and how badly it compares to the latest Sony on the spec sheet), it's price, and in the case of the SL system how big the lenses are (and like you how ugly the camera is).  What they miss is that Leica is very firmly focused for all its cameras not on what technology enables (the M(240) was that mistake), but on what they think a photographer needs - they are very focused in this respect, and that's what makes them different.  This pisses many people off, but it's the reason why the menus are so cut back, the tech appears to be old school and things like the M camera seems stuck in the past.  The truth is, they're not at all.  They just put together an entire package that they think works best.

 

Don't think for a second that Leica is not aware of what other manufacturers are producing, and what tech is available.  They're very well aware of what is possible, and you can bet they are considering right now what to include in the M11 - I have no doubt there are prototypes being planned and considered.  The point is, the M camera IS a rangefinder camera.  If that doesn't work for you, you will always be fighting a compromise.  Including the EVF opens up all those other manual lenses, and it is a sensible addition to the system, but it is not the main point of the camera.

 

For their aperture and focal lengths, the S and SL lenses (and the TL lenses for that matter) are what they are - properly compare like for like, and you will find lenses from Canon & Sony etc are no smaller, but more critically, they are not as good.  I'm sure they're lighter, and certainly cheaper ...

 

You've had your camera a year.  There won't be an "upgrade" of note till the M11.  Do you really need one and can you wait that long?  In the M system, I am content with my M9 Monochrom and M-A.  I've decided I will add an M10 M-D, so I have a colour digital M camera.  I also suspect that the M-D is at the margins of what Leica will produce in the future, so this may be my last chance to get one.  I also suspect I won't be interested in what the M11 brings as the M10 is close to perfection for what I do - take handheld pictures as a hobby.  More megapixels and other tech improvements for the sake of it don't interest me even slightly, and if they detract from what I want to do, I will avoid them.  Not upgrading will also save me money (I did my insurance assessment the other day and was shocked at what I've spent on camera equipment - time to stop).

 

Cheers

John

Edited August 23, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[Keith_W]

Thanks John, I might have only owned a Leica for a year, but I have been following camera companies for 25 years, and I have always had a special interest for Leica. I remember that the first digital rangefinder was not a Leica, but an Epson. And I remember the eye watering prices for all the limited editions. Years ago, I simply could not afford it. And then I could afford it but didn't want to spend the money. What's changed is that I no longer feel like lugging around a huge bag full of camera gear, which is why i'm in the M system. 

[IkarusJohn]

I think it's worth persisting with it - the trick (for me) is to understand what the M is, and to make the most out of what it is, rather than worry about what it isn't.

[@ndy_ellis]

I've really enjoyed the M experience.  I haven't used any other camera since I got it last December; my Sony A7RII lies in a bag in my study with a compact RX100 - both unused sine the M arrived.  The only time I expect I might pull the Sony out is if I want a wide angle (I have a 25mm Batis for it)

 

Although more likely I will trade the Sony kit and get a Leica 28mm.

 

I have a vintage 50mm Summicron Mk IV and a modern 35mm Summicron plus a 50mm f1.5 Voigtlander - everything fits in a small bag.  I'm done.  No buyer's remorse at all - because my photography has improved.

 

The new version looks nice but I don't need it - I'm off the treadmill of upgrades.

[mahakalaka]

Keith, I don't think you are as unique as you may think you are by using an M because of it's small form factor and good quality images. I would even go out on a limb and suggest that makes up the very vast majority of M users (at least the maybe dozen or so M users I have personally met). I honestly believe those who buy them for the pure nostalgia, to impress someone or because they are somehow anti-progress, are quite the minority.  

 

When the M9 came out it was quite impressive that they could fit a full frame sensor in such a small camera. Now the M10 is more advanced and even smaller. Personally, I think they have achieved a more advanced camera than what it sounds like you are giving them credit for. 

 

Since Sony and now others have also managed to make small-ish cameras with full frame sensors (or great APS-C sensors), I do believe a lot of Leica users have moved in that direction and rightfully so. But still, even with a Sony or similar camera, if you want to keep size down and quality up, you are looking at manual focus primes and I think many of us still prefer to focus those lenses with a rangefinder. Sure, many of us also prefer the simplicity and bare-bones nature of the camera, but that kind of comes hand in hand with the manual focus lenses we are using them with. They work extremely well together!

 

So I guess I just don't see what is so offensive about Leica. Yes the prices of course, but the M10 is handmade in Germany and if that is what the company prefers to continue doing, we will either just have to accept it or choose another brand. No one is forcing us to use their cameras and I don't feel like they are in anyway fooling us either. Maybe one day Zeiss or another company will make an equally small camera that is equally as nice to use with the same or equal lenses for less money, and I really hope they do, but I don't think it's as easy as it may sound. And until then, Leica's are still rather unique.

 

I for one am actually surprised that the M10-P has as many upgrades (or changes, however you see it) as it does, I was not expecting that. I have not owned any other digital M than the M9 or the MMv1, but am starting to get the itch and the M10-P seems like an awfully nice camera in my opinion.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

 the M10 is handmade in Germany

 

Not entirely true.

Edited August 23, 2018 by pico