Concerning the Winder M4-2

[PFM]

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The missing battery chamber to my recently purchased M4-2 winder arrived today, and never having been around someone who used one of them, was very surprised to hear a big "whoomp" every time it fired.  Granted, I didn't have any film in the camera because I was just testing out the operation of the winder, but I could have swore seeing somewhere in the Leica advertising literature about how quiet the winder is.  Am I wrong, or is this not normal?

 

PF

[pico]

The M4-2 winder is an industrial era monster. Why would some expect it to be subtle?

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[trisberg]

I bought an M4-2 winder a few years ago. Tried it once, and it as so loud and it felt like it would tear the camera apart. Never used again. It's now sitting on the shelf.

 

-Thomas

[PFM]

  Okay, just guess I'll have to live with it.

 

PF

[a.noctilux]

I have one from late 1980's used with M4-P then M6.

 

At first I thought it was not working properly with the loud noise and that brutal push-up finger each shutter release.

But at store, the shop keeper showed other winders with same behavior.

 

When I needed winder I used it and shut it to "off" after that, the good thing is thumb wind can be used with winder mounted untill the next film change.

 

Another good thing: the M + winder holding is better secured with large lens like a Noctilux or Elmarit-M 135mm (this last not usable with the last Motor-M  ) .

 

...

Happily, Leica released other winder/motor-M which are more user friendly than this first attempt.

 

Have a try the last Leica Motor-M with handle and so "quieter/gentler".

[PFM]

I have one from late 1980's used with M4-P then M6.

 

At first I thought it was not working properly with the loud noise and that brutal push-up finger each shutter release.

But at store, the shop keeper showed other winders with same behavior.

 

When I needed winder I used it and shut it to "off" after that, the good thing is thumb wind can be used with winder mounted untill the next film change.

 

Another good thing: the M + winder holding is better secured with large lens like a Noctilux or Elmarit-M 135mm (this last not usable with the last Motor-M  ) .

 

...

Happily, Leica released other winder/motor-M which are more user friendly than this first attempt.

 

Have a try the last Leica Motor-M with handle and so "quieter/gentler".

Ah, so that's the one I read about.  It all makes sense  now.  Thanks.

 

PF

[adan]

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A thumbnail (and thus imprecise) description of the M4-2 winder operation.

 

It was designed to require the minimum amount of modification to the cameras (especially electrical - Leitz was a mechanical and optical company that always had problems getting electrical stuff right, in that era), and thus depended on some weird mechanical feedback rather than electric signals to function.

 

You push the shutter button, releasing the shutter, and simultaneously pressing down a long shaft of sheet metal inside the camera, to close the electrical contacts in the winder and send power to the winder's electric motor. The motor then starts to turn and advance the film and cock the shutter. As it turns, it also returns the long shaft of sheet metal upwards against the shutter button to "unlock" the winding mechanism (try manually winding a Leica film body with the button depressed, and you'll see a depressed button locks out film winding, or results in nasty "grinding"). Coincidentally knocking your finger up and out of the way.

 

In this regard it is rather like the add-on "bump-stocks" for AR15-type rifles, made famous after the mass shooting in Las Vegas, that use recoil to push the button/trigger against your finger.

 

The motor does not stop when the shutter is fully cocked. It keeps right on trying to move a now-immovable wind mechanism, and having nowhere else to go, the motor itself torques or twists or writhes in its mount (intentionally slightly loose), in the process separating the power contacts, and turning itself off.

 

Think of a bump-stock combined with an unbalanced washing machine, and you get the idea. SnaprrrrWHOMP!

 

This is why the M4-2 et seq cameras were given hardened-steel wind-mechanism gears instead of the smoother-operating softer brass gears of the M3/2/4/5. The motor's "thrash" at the end, to break the electrical connection, would have broken or distorted brass gears rather quickly.

 

It is in fact recommended to NOT use the M4-2 Winder "dry" with no film loaded. The film drag helps "tame" the motor force - but only slightly.

Edited August 11, 2018 by adan

[PFM]

Thanks for the info, Adan.  I only did about ten releases (single and continuous combined), so hopefully I didn't hurt anything.  It just sounds like it's going to rip the curtains out of the camera.  But after an afternoon of shooting, I don't know why I'd use it.  If the action was that intense, more than likely I'd be using the R7.  Or I could try for a Rapidwinder instead.

 

PF

[Chuck Albertson]

It's about as subtle as a bazooka.

[PFM]

Problem solved, ordered a Rapidwinder yesterday.

 

PF

[edstock]

I had ordered a pre-owned winder M4-2 for my M4-P. Prior to its arrival I was doing more research on the M4-2. Reading a number of member responses with their own experience, I was less than enthralled. It arrived I loaded the batteries and hooked it on to the M4-P. Noise, but not a great deal. I did a dry run for a few seconds bearing in mind about not to do a dry (no film) fun. The unit is pristine and came with an original how-to  Leica book. I searched around and found a mint M winder, same as on my M7. Granted it cost significantly more then the the M4-2, and when it arrived I load batteries into it, mounted it  on the M4-P perfect. Why a winder on my M's and my R's, fingers are getting a little stiff with age.

[pgk]

By Leica standards these winders are very cheap used. There's a good reason. I think that the only thing that would quieten their operation would be a blimp but I doubt anyone ever made one for an M series Leica.

[wlaidlaw]

My M4-2 winder has come back from Alan Starkie much quieter and the motor cradle is no longer crashing into the casing at the end of each wind sequence. If anyone wants to adjust the torque limiter micro-switches to make them less of a beast, there are instructions on Andrew Nemeth’s Leica blog pages.

Wilson

PS Does anyone have any idea how many rolls a set of 4 AA NiMH batteries (Panasonic Eneloop Pro) lasts for. I am doing the film photography at the Sunday brunch following a neighbour’s daughter’s wedding tomorrow. I would expect to take 6 to 8 rolls of Ektar 100.  As my Mecablitz 40 flash also uses 4 of the same batteries, my thought is to take one set of 4 with me and have another set of 4 in my car. W

Edited August 2, 2019 by wlaidlaw

[jkcampbell2]

On 8/2/2019 at 6:32 AM, wlaidlaw said:

My M4-2 winder has come back from Alan Starkie much quieter and the motor cradle is no longer crashing into the casing at the end of each wind sequence. If anyone wants to adjust the torque limiter micro-switches to make them less of a beast, there are instructions on Andrew Nemeth’s Leica blog pages.

Wilson

I used a pair of Winder M4-P and Winder Ms for a years before upgrading to the Leica M Motor. Pico's description of "industrial era monster" is quite apt. Back in the day they were the only option and as noisy as they were, they weren't really any worse than the Nikon F2 motors I also used day to day. If they were not properly adjusted they did tend to feel like they were going to blow up in your hand.

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Never afraid to take anything apart I opened up my winders to see if I could make them any smoother or quieter. After tuning up mine I got a few requests from some of the other news shooters in town to work on theirs. Not wanting to be in the camera repair business I wrote up some instructions on how to adjust the winder mechanism. The link in Andrew's blog was to my then website that has long since faded into history.  Questions about the old winders still pop up now and then so I dug up the original instructions I wrote and will post them below.

My best advice if you want a winder for a film M go buy the Leica M Motor. They run about $300US and are light years better than the old winders. Note than the both winder styles will work the M7, M6, M4-P and the M4-2 without modification and I have heard that the M3 can be modified to work but is not recommended as the brass gears will not last long under the stress of a winder.

If you are the adventurous type the old M4-P and the Winder Ms are cheap and whats more fun than taking apart something made by Leica? Here's the instructions from my old website:

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Adjusting the Leica Winder

First of all we need to understand how the winder operates. When you trip the shutter on the camera the tension is removed and the spring (4) rotates the motor assembly counter-clockwise. The shaft (1) attached to the motor then releases the microswitch (2) to energize the motor which advances the film and cocks the shutter. With the shutter cocked and the film advanced the camera in a sense "locks-up". The motor keeps running, torqueing itself up against the spring tension causing the whole motor to rotate clockwise until the shaft (1) trips the bottom half of the microswitch (2) disconnecting the power to the motor. The whole unit (camera and winder) stays under tension until the shutter is tripped and the process starts over. This is one of the reasons why Leica switched from brass gears in the M3 to steel gears with the M4-2. 

So why are so many Leica winders loud and feel like they are tearing up your camera? There are two common problems. First the the spring lever (4) hitting the inside of the winder case and second, the shaft (1) hitting the padded stop (3). 

I'll assume you have already removed the motor assembly from the winder housing. Remember there are two wires connecting the motor to the battery contacts in the winder housing. As you are working on the assembly be careful not to pull the wires loose. 

We need to address the spring lever first. Loosen the nut holding the padded stop (3) and adjust the stop until the spring lever (4) is flush with the motor mount. Most winders I have adjusted have had the stop set so the lever hits the inside of the case causing a loud "thwak". You can actually feel the winder body expanding from the lever hitting it. 

Now we need to adjust the microswitch (2) so the motor rotates as little as possible during the cycle. The second loudest noise in the process is the motor shaft (1) hitting the padded stop when the tension is released by tripping the shutter. If you did step 1 the the microswitch is now totally out of adjustment. Loosen the screw (2) holding the microswitch and move the whole switch assembly so that if the motor shaft is against the stop (3) the motor is running and as you rotate the motor away from the stop, the motor turns off. You want to set the microswitch so you get the least amount of movement of the motor between the "on" and "off" states. The less the motor rotates the less impact the motor shaft (1) has on the stop. The easiest way to check this is to put the battery pack on and rotate the motor by hand to see how much it has to move before it turns off, remember you'll need to turn the winder "ON" by holding the other microswitch closed. The "ON - OFF" microswitch is the only other switch in the unit, it is attached by two wires and is tripped by the release lever that attaches the winder to the camera body. Since the winder is apart the switch is in the "OFF" state. 

Now is a good time to also check the pad on the stop (3). M4-2 and M4-P winders have been around since the 70s and the pads tend to get hard. New pads may be available from Leica or use any type material that has the same density. Just rotating the pad 90 degrees can help. 

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Cheers jc 

[wlaidlaw]

Funnily enough the only camera I have ever had damaged by a winder was with the more modern, quieter and supposedly gentler Motor-Winder M. It ended up shearing the motor input shaft, which also acts as the axle for the main intermediate timing gear, so the whole gear train crashed to a halt, jamming my M7 totally. Evidence was found of a very poor past service, with a number of internal components misaligned and/or un-lubricated.  As the only known past service was at Solms, when the VF and DX reader were upgraded, we came to our own conclusions. This may have contributed to the issue by increasing the drag on the motor. Below is a picture of the sheared input shaft. Leica were very difficult about supplying a replacement shaft and it was only when I wrote a begging letter to the chairman (60 years a Leica user and a third generation one at that, currently with 28 Leica cameras etc etc), that they relented and supplied a new shaft. The repairer in question is a very well known one whose work is almost exclusively Leica repairs. 

Wilson

 

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Edited August 11, 2019 by wlaidlaw

[PFM]

That's a very comprehensive explanation, JC.  Thanks for posting the instructions.  Now, if I can only find the box I put the motor in...

PF

Edited August 23, 2019 by PFM

[jkcampbell2]

On 8/22/2019 at 11:31 PM, PFM said:

That's a very comprehensive explanation, JC.  Thanks for posting the instructions.  Now, if I can only find the box I put the motor in...

PF

Ha ha, the original box is probably worth more than the winder! Cheers, jc

[PFM]

1 hour ago, jkcampbell2 said:

Ha ha, the original box is probably worth more than the winder! Cheers, jc

I value the Rapidwinder box more.

PF