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Help with Night and Indoor Photography with or without Flash


Enbee

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Hello - I have been trying to use my M for night and indoor photography and have had substantial issues for sometime. I feel my iPhone does a better job at taking photos than my M at times. Maybe I need to work on the settings so I need some help figuring it out.

 

I take photos at f4 to make sure the entire subject is in focus (even at 1.4 this problem occurs). The shutter speed is very low and I can't get a good photograph. I have tried using SF40 that I use. I tried TTF and often go to manual mode.

 

Sometime the subject is too bright (I have tried using the diffuser provided), sometimes too dark. I hardly have had good shots at night.

 

Can someone help if I need a more powerful flash? Is there a place I can learn how to make night photography better? Any online tutorials or videos?

 

I have an elinchrom ELB400 but don't want to keep carrying it just for some casual shots (though I haven't really tried it at home). I am open to trying that as well.

 

Any help will be really appreciated. Thank You in advance!

Thanks,

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For architectural interiors, I would use a tripod. You do not say what you are photographing indoors. If people, a fast full aperture plus safe shutter speed to prevent shake, plus a high ISO should give you consistently good results. Flash, for me, is a last resort.

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I do a fair amount of flash photography with my M-240.  I find I generally prefer the results at lower ISOs using flash over what I get at high ISOs and no flash.  With my M accurate flash exposure can be a challenge due to the basic center-weighted metering.  Anytime there is a bright background, light from a window, or other light source in the frame the metering will typically underexpose the image when the flash is in TTL mode.  For this reason I normally use a flash that has Auto (auto-thryster) Mode in which the flash controls the flash exposure.  The flash meters the light reflected by the subject and will give good exposures in scenes where TTL Mode will not.

 

Unfortunately the Nissin-based SF-40 and SF-60 only offer TTL and Manual Modes (their Auto Mode is TTL without the ability to do flash exposure compensation).  My primary flash for my M is the SF-58 which does offer Auto-Thyrister Mode (the current SF-64 does as well).   The good news is that many third party flashes will work in Auto-Thryster Mode as well and can be picked up used very inexpensively.  My older Nikon flashes work fine on my M-240 since I don't need Leica TTL capability.

 

Important as well for good flash shots is how the flash is positioned.  Pointed directly at the subject the flash will produce very hard and unattractive shadows as well as unnatural flattening of facial features.  This is the "flash look" that tends to cause folks to avoid flash.  If the flash is bounced from ceiling or walls the shadows are much softer and this directional light creates modeling of the subjects features.  Done well the result can be a shot that appears to have been taken in good light without flash.  I learned much of what I know about flash from this site:

 

https://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

 

My advice - get a relatively powerful flash (bounced flash requires more power) that offers Auto-Thyrister mode.  Use a relatively low ISO and use an aperture that gives sufficient depth of field.  Then let the flash do the rest.

Edited by Luke_Miller
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Of course, you must shoot raw. I set the shutter speed I need and go up to ISO 1600 or 2000. Now the task is to raise the shadows in post processing. Raw Therapee is an excellent program for this. Its Shadows slider does the job, and the Noise Reduction is very good.

 

This shot was taken at 1/60 sec, f/4 and ISO 1600.

 

40726726664_a951571bc4_o_d.jpg

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Flash is an area that can so easily be over-complicated. I completely understand the concerns raised by the OP, and I see some things in response that are fairly typical approaches to solving. That said, I think you need to consider simplifying and not letting light scare you. There is a very 'manual' way of thinking with Leica in general and I really thin that line of thought should continue with lighting. Flash, mutli-flash, strobes, etc. It's all the same. Control the light. Here are some thoughts and suggestions to get more comfortable with flash. Note that my responses are one as a full advocate of manual light control for the best results. 

 

Use the camera meter to determine the scene you want to capture. The center-weight metering is actually pretty good in my (so far) limited time with the M system. There are some very good, highly capable TTL systems out there. One really only needs to look as far as someone like Joe McNaly to see the incredibly amazing work a state of the art system can deliver. I've had the please to work, and learn from Joe on a few occasions and the guy is so incredibly talented. Look him up for inspiration. For the M, I believe you have to strip it down to the basics. 

 

Night time is challenging for automatic flash systems. I have felt the pain of trying to get an exposure right using automatic modes and once you get comfortable with the use of manual those frustrations will be minimized.  There are certainly times when you need to use automatic modes, but turn it off for now!  No auto-thyristor modes, no auto-anything. 

 

One concept that might help with the control of light. While not always 100% truth in general; shutter speed controls ambient light. Aperture controls flash. Both are like window shutters adjusted for just the right amount of light. 

 

Get the flash off the camera. There are an endless number of ways to easily do this. Get a set of pocket wizards or similar and get the flash off the camera.  Or a simple off-camera cord. I've not yet tested my Canon OCF cord, but I have no reason to think it won't work.  By the way, do you have any studio experience? 

 

Establish a starting point. Take a baseline shot with existing light and determine what you have to work with and then adjust. Get your shutter speed to 1/160 or less, maybe F4 or 5.6 as you mentioned originally and set the flash to 1/4 power. You can then adjust the flash power, the aperture or both to get the look you want. 

 

Don't be afraid of long shutter speeds with reasonably well stabilized shooting methods. Doesn't always mean a tripod. The flash duration is so fast that more than not, it will freeze the subject and provide a sharp image. The background is probably not as critical for the image and a little movement might be no concern. Experiment. 

 

Use some basic modifiers. A diffuser, a bounce or shoot-thru scrim. There are very small and portable solutions available. I like a lot of the stuff from David Honl. Grids, filters, snoots, etc. 

 

There are a lot of resources out there for using flash.  Here are a few. 

 

Some great videos from Joe McNally: https://www.youtube.com/user/joemcnallyphoto/videos

Check out his books too. Great stuff. 

 

Zack Arias has produced a great instructional set for using one light, off camera.  http://dedpxl.com/product/onelight/

Here is a video from Zack explaining the relationship between aperture and flash: 

 

David Hobby and the Strobist website is simply loaded with amazing tutorials and practical advice. http://strobist.blogspot.com

 

And here is a manual flash basics produced by Adorama. https://www.adorama.com/alc/0013025/article/Manual-Flash-Exposure-Basics

 

You will find there is an endless number of methods to achieve the same thing. This is especially true with photography. You might find the advice like the post above suggesting let the flash figure it out to work best for you. You might find fully manual to be the best fit for your style. Regardless, the key is to find what works best for you.  There is not one approach that will work 100% of the time...it really depends on the situation, and more importantly the desired outcome. 

 

Hope this long rambling post helps a bit. 

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Flash is an area that can so easily be over-complicated. I completely understand the concerns raised by the OP, and I see some things in response that are fairly typical approaches to solving. That said, I think you need to consider simplifying and not letting light scare you. There is a very 'manual' way of thinking with Leica in general and I really thin that line of thought should continue with lighting. Flash, mutli-flash, strobes, etc. It's all the same. Control the light. Here are some thoughts and suggestions to get more comfortable with flash. Note that my responses are one as a full advocate of manual light control for the best results. 

 

Use the camera meter to determine the scene you want to capture. The center-weight metering is actually pretty good in my (so far) limited time with the M system. There are some very good, highly capable TTL systems out there. One really only needs to look as far as someone like Joe McNaly to see the incredibly amazing work a state of the art system can deliver. I've had the please to work, and learn from Joe on a few occasions and the guy is so incredibly talented. Look him up for inspiration. For the M, I believe you have to strip it down to the basics. 

 

Night time is challenging for automatic flash systems. I have felt the pain of trying to get an exposure right using automatic modes and once you get comfortable with the use of manual those frustrations will be minimized.  There are certainly times when you need to use automatic modes, but turn it off for now!  No auto-thyristor modes, no auto-anything. 

 

One concept that might help with the control of light. While not always 100% truth in general; shutter speed controls ambient light. Aperture controls flash. Both are like window shutters adjusted for just the right amount of light. 

 

Get the flash off the camera. There are an endless number of ways to easily do this. Get a set of pocket wizards or similar and get the flash off the camera.  Or a simple off-camera cord. I've not yet tested my Canon OCF cord, but I have no reason to think it won't work.  By the way, do you have any studio experience? 

 

Establish a starting point. Take a baseline shot with existing light and determine what you have to work with and then adjust. Get your shutter speed to 1/160 or less, maybe F4 or 5.6 as you mentioned originally and set the flash to 1/4 power. You can then adjust the flash power, the aperture or both to get the look you want. 

 

Don't be afraid of long shutter speeds with reasonably well stabilized shooting methods. Doesn't always mean a tripod. The flash duration is so fast that more than not, it will freeze the subject and provide a sharp image. The background is probably not as critical for the image and a little movement might be no concern. Experiment. 

 

Use some basic modifiers. A diffuser, a bounce or shoot-thru scrim. There are very small and portable solutions available. I like a lot of the stuff from David Honl. Grids, filters, snoots, etc. 

 

There are a lot of resources out there for using flash.  Here are a few. 

 

Some great videos from Joe McNally: https://www.youtube.com/user/joemcnallyphoto/videos

Check out his books too. Great stuff. 

 

Zack Arias has produced a great instructional set for using one light, off camera.  http://dedpxl.com/product/onelight/

Here is a video from Zack explaining the relationship between aperture and flash: 

 

David Hobby and the Strobist website is simply loaded with amazing tutorials and practical advice. http://strobist.blogspot.com

 

And here is a manual flash basics produced by Adorama. https://www.adorama.com/alc/0013025/article/Manual-Flash-Exposure-Basics

 

You will find there is an endless number of methods to achieve the same thing. This is especially true with photography. You might find the advice like the post above suggesting let the flash figure it out to work best for you. You might find fully manual to be the best fit for your style. Regardless, the key is to find what works best for you.  There is not one approach that will work 100% of the time...it really depends on the situation, and more importantly the desired outcome. 

 

Hope this long rambling post helps a bit. 

Thank You! This is extremely helpful. I do have some studio experience. I really liked some of my previous studio shoots. It seems more like trying out various things and see what works. When you say an off-camera flash, like a stand-alone flash that's not on the camera? I will be trying a few things in the upcoming days. Let me see how they work.

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I do a fair amount of flash photography with my M-240.  I find I generally prefer the results at lower ISOs using flash over what I get at high ISOs and no flash.  With my M accurate flash exposure can be a challenge due to the basic center-weighted metering.  Anytime there is a bright background, light from a window, or other light source in the frame the metering will typically underexpose the image when the flash is in TTL mode.  For this reason I normally use a flash that has Auto (auto-thryster) Mode in which the flash controls the flash exposure.  The flash meters the light reflected by the subject and will give good exposures in scenes where TTL Mode will not.

 

Unfortunately the Nissin-based SF-40 and SF-60 only offer TTL and Manual Modes (their Auto Mode is TTL without the ability to do flash exposure compensation).  My primary flash for my M is the SF-58 which does offer Auto-Thyrister Mode (the current SF-64 does as well).   The good news is that many third party flashes will work in Auto-Thryster Mode as well and can be picked up used very inexpensively.  My older Nikon flashes work fine on my M-240 since I don't need Leica TTL capability.

 

Important as well for good flash shots is how the flash is positioned.  Pointed directly at the subject the flash will produce very hard and unattractive shadows as well as unnatural flattening of facial features.  This is the "flash look" that tends to cause folks to avoid flash.  If the flash is bounced from ceiling or walls the shadows are much softer and this directional light creates modeling of the subjects features.  Done well the result can be a shot that appears to have been taken in good light without flash.  I learned much of what I know about flash from this site:

 

https://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/

 

My advice - get a relatively powerful flash (bounced flash requires more power) that offers Auto-Thyrister mode.  Use a relatively low ISO and use an aperture that gives sufficient depth of field.  Then let the flash do the rest.

 

Thank You for this. What would be a powerful non-Leica flash be? I would really like to get away from the flash look. I recently did a photo shoot in a park on a cloudy day and I really hoped that I would get some amazing results with flash-photography. The images were over exposed and I was saddened by the results. Shall try something again soon !

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Hello - I have been trying to use my M for night and indoor photography and have had substantial issues for sometime. I feel my iPhone does a better job at taking photos than my M at times. Maybe I need to work on the settings so I need some help figuring it out.

 

I take photos at f4 to make sure the entire subject is in focus (even at 1.4 this problem occurs). The shutter speed is very low and I can't get a good photograph. I have tried using SF40 that I use. I tried TTF and often go to manual mode.

 

Sometime the subject is too bright (I have tried using the diffuser provided), sometimes too dark. I hardly have had good shots at night.

 

Can someone help if I need a more powerful flash? Is there a place I can learn how to make night photography better? Any online tutorials or videos?

 

I have an elinchrom ELB400 but don't want to keep carrying it just for some casual shots (though I haven't really tried it at home). I am open to trying that as well.

 

Any help will be really appreciated. Thank You in advance!

Thanks,

 

 

Can I ask exactly what kinds of shots your trying to accomplish / light?

 

I am not shooting professionally anymore.....
 
For my use I use, I wanted to incorporate "controlled lighting" with  my portable Leica kit.
I tried an SF40 and its OK but has the on camera look, because its on the camera.
Switch to manual you can dial down for fill in .
......Usually I ditch the flash and just crank up the ISO
 
I also put together 3 Old Nikon SB800's with quantum battery's  and off brand pocket wizards. This kit works just fine for many things.
Bounce one against the ceiling or in an umbrella or soft box. With a little effort and some fill cards, you've got a portable studio.
I'll usually shoot manually adding tissue to the lights or moving them back to control the output.
Fortunately you have the LCD to check your exposure,once set shoot away. ( shooting DNG helps for better Post control)
 
Although as I said, these days I prefer the simplicity of available light and that is where the M shines
 
It depends what your shooting....and how you go about lighting
Does this help?
 
 
 
 
Edited by ECohen
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Thank You for your response and asking what I am trying to shoot. I shoot a lot inside our house which doesn't get much light. When there is light I get some beautiful shots but mostly I don't. Also, at night shooting has been a challenge. When I shoot more than 1 person, I need to increase the aperture otherwise the beautiful bokeh takes over part of the other person. I don't like increasing the ISO, it really makes the images grainy and no matter how much I have tried in the post, I am unable to get a naturally looking image. I love the M for when there is light but when there is no light I would like to learn what setup will work best for me and my needs. Hope that answers your question.

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Thank You for this. What would be a powerful non-Leica flash be? I would really like to get away from the flash look. I recently did a photo shoot in a park on a cloudy day and I really hoped that I would get some amazing results with flash-photography. The images were over exposed and I was saddened by the results. Shall try something again soon !

 

Almost any of the older Nikon flashes that offer Auto-Thyrister mode would be fine.  That would include the SB-25, SB-26, SB-28, SB-28DX, and SB-80DX models.  These should be available used at attractive prices.  The SB-800 is also a good choice, but it will be more expensive since it supports Nikon's iTTL flash exposure control used on current bodies.  Just remember you need to manually enter into the flash the camera's shooting aperture and ISO setting.  That information is needed in order for the flash to calculate correct flash exposure.

 

I love shooting out doors on cloudy days.  The light is wonderfully soft and a little fill flash on the subjects would create a very nice image.  Since it is only lifting the shadows on-camera flash in moderation should produce respectable results.  I suggest manual exposure, fixed ISO and set the camera to underexpose the background by a stop.  Easiest way is to set correct exposure and then go to one stop smaller aperture.  With the SF-40 you could try TTL mode using exposure compensation to get the flash exposure the way you want it.  Personally I would probably set the flash to Manual mode and experiment with flash output until I was satisfied.

 

The above assumes that the flash will not be the primary light source on the subject.  Once it is dark enough that the flash becomes the primary light source things change significantly.  Since there is probably no surface available with which to bounce the light,  on camera flash will be too harsh and the flash face that results will be unattractive.   In that situation I would use my lightstands, umbrellas, and radio triggers to get diffused and directional light on the subject.  But sometimes I have no option other than on camera.  Then I use my Graslon flash diffuser which is surprisingly effective in softening the flash.  Below is a fill flash shot using the Graslon.

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Thank You! This is extremely helpful. I do have some studio experience. I really liked some of my previous studio shoots. It seems more like trying out various things and see what works. When you say an off-camera flash, like a stand-alone flash that's not on the camera? I will be trying a few things in the upcoming days. Let me see how they work.

 

 

Yes, when I say off-camera flash it could mean a stand alone. In essence, it really just means get it off the hotshoe. Give the light some direction instead of the hard flashlight effect. The beauty of digital is we can try so many things. Back when I shot only film it mean rolls and rolls of film and waiting for results. SO much easier now. 

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Yes, when I say off-camera flash it could mean a stand alone. In essence, it really just means get it off the hotshoe. Give the light some direction instead of the hard flashlight effect. The beauty of digital is we can try so many things. Back when I shot only film it mean rolls and rolls of film and waiting for results. SO much easier now. 

 

Typically I bounce the flash so it stays in the camera hotshoe, but is not pointed at the subject.  But sometimes bounce is not an option.  Then I fall back on a technique shown in an article by Sean Reid entitled "Working with Flash' which can be found on his subscription website.  Basically it is hand holding the flash connected to the body via a sync cord.  I haven't tried it, but I expect radio triggers would work also. The flash end of the cord has a wrist strap so while I am focusing with the left hand the flash can dangle below the wrist.  When ready to shoot the camera is held in the right hand while the left holds the flash and points points it to creates the desired result.  I prefer to use the Leica grip since it gives me a more secure grip on the body.

 

With the flash in hand it can be bounced if indoors or held high to camera left and directed towards down towards the subject to create more directional lighting.  While I normally use my SF-58 the technique works equally well with the small SF-24D and hand holding gives that flash the swivel and tilt it lacks when fixed in the camera hot shoe.  A diffuser can be added to soften the flash output.  I use the lightweight Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer.

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