Film Developing and Chemical Temperatures

[RayD28]

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I'm a novice at home developing.  I've kept things basic and tried to do everything by the book.  I use the Massive Development app but keep my chemicals at 20 Celsius.  This often means I have to put beakers in ice or warm water to get 20 degrees. I know the MD app compensates for different temps with shorter or longer development times.  My question is whether there is a practical difference in output quality when deviating a few degrees?  I know I could do some experiments but I thought I'd get some guidance so I know what to expect.  By the way, I'm not as strict with the temperatures for wash, fixer, and rinse.  Not sure if it makes a difference so long as its within a few degrees of developer temperature.  Thanks in advance for advice and suggestions.  

 

Ray

[TomB_tx]

I've not noticed  a quality difference over several degrees of temperature, as long as you adjust the development time for the temperature. I do all at "room temperature" which varies in Texas with season and heat or A/C settings.

I do keep all solutions at the same temperature, storing 2 gallons of de-ionized water with the stock solutions for mixing and film rinse (using the Iilford 3-change method of washing instead of running water, as tap water temperature gets pretty high here in summer).

So my processing may be anywhere in the range of 68 to 78 degrees F.

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[Pyrogallol]

What you said in the first line of your question is the way to go, “keep it basic and by the book”.

You do not say what film or developer you are using but either one probably gives you the time for the normal temperature of 20c.

Ilford films give a chart of time adjustments for different temperatures which I have found useful in the summer. You can probably find the chart on the web and it might well be the same for any developer and film as I think it is a purely chemical reaction question?

If you can keep your stop and fix temperatures within a few degrees of the developer that will help. You want to avoid any sharp increase or drop from one bath to another.

I do not think you need to worry about the wash water increasing in temperature during the wash time, the gradual increase in temperature will just help the film to wash quicker.

I do not think there will be any difference in quality of the negatives providing the temperature range is not too wide or has a dramatic jump between one bath and the next.

The days of reticulated grain are long gone I hope. The last time I saw wrinkled emulsion was developing Ferannia colour slide film back in the 70’s.

[otto.f]

The smaller the film the less tolerance you’ll have for temperature fluctuations in the developer. The leeway varies per film too. Stopping and fixing a little bit warmer won’t harm. If it gets too hot you can get reticulation (crackles in the emulsion), but that will start only above 30 Celsius I guess.

It also depends on your end product: are you developing to scan or for a wet print, AAD or AAA? In my experience scanning is more forgiving. In wet printing you can choose a lower grade paper with multicontrast filters if the negative is too hard, but in general a relatively soft negative is a better starting point in the search for the best contrast for your subject. A variation of one degree Celsius won’t give irreversible problems with multicontrast papers.

Edited August 3, 2018 by otto.f

[RayD28]

I've not noticed  a quality difference over several degrees of temperature, as long as you adjust the development time for the temperature. I do all at "room temperature" which varies in Texas with season and heat or A/C settings.

I do keep all solutions at the same temperature, storing 2 gallons of de-ionized water with the stock solutions for mixing and film rinse (using the Iilford 3-change method of washing instead of running water, as tap water temperature gets pretty high here in summer).

So my processing may be anywhere in the range of 68 to 78 degrees F.

 

Thanks, Tom.  

 

What you said in the first line of your question is the way to go, “keep it basic and by the book”.

You do not say what film or developer you are using but either one probably gives you the time for the normal temperature of 20c.

Ilford films give a chart of time adjustments for different temperatures which I have found useful in the summer. You can probably find the chart on the web and it might well be the same for any developer and film as I think it is a purely chemical reaction question?

If you can keep your stop and fix temperatures within a few degrees of the developer that will help. You want to avoid any sharp increase or drop from one bath to another.

I do not think you need to worry about the wash water increasing in temperature during the wash time, the gradual increase in temperature will just help the film to wash quicker.

I do not think there will be any difference in quality of the negatives providing the temperature range is not too wide or has a dramatic jump between one bath and the next.

The days of reticulated grain are long gone I hope. The last time I saw wrinkled emulsion was developing Ferannia colour slide film back in the 70’s.

 

Thanks, P.  I use Ilford DD-X and either FP4+ or HP5+, always at box speed.  

 

The smaller the film the less tolerance you’ll have for temperature fluctuations in the developer. The leeway varies per film too. Stopping and fixing a little bit warmer won’t harm. If it gets too hot you can get reticulation (crackles in the emulsion), but that will start only above 30 Celsius I guess.

It also depends on your end product: are you developing to scan or for a wet print, AAD or AAA? In my experience scanning is more forgiving. In wet printing you can choose a lower grade paper with multicontrast filters if the negative is too hard, but in general a relatively soft negative is a better starting point in the search for the best contrast for your subject. A variation of one degree Celsius won’t give irreversible problems with multicontrast papers.

 

 

Thanks, Otto.  I shoot only 35mm.  I suppose I develop to scan but like to think I could send film to a pro lab for wet prints if I have something special.  I don't have a darkroom.

 

In summary, it sounds like using a Massive Development chart or app and adjusting for temperature of chemicals is not a problem.  Thanks again for the tips and insight.   

[david strachan]

FP4 is my B&W film too.

Used to use D76, it was fine. Now i use Ilfotec LC29, it's good too.

 

I don't faff around with getting the temps right, but i do measure the water temperature, and when mixed, and make all calculations for the time and concentrations, and continuous rocking-rolling machine. I prefer long development times to avoid streaks and stains, and surge marks.

 

My last developing was at 13deg C, (winter in Adelaide ) for 21 mins in a continuous roller, multi film tank. Good negs, properly developed to med-low contrast, which i prefer. The stop and fixer were also 13 deg, so no worries there with temperature differentces.

 

I can recommend Anchell's "The Darkroom Cookbook". It's a spirel-bound book full of formulae, and tips.

 

Always keep a notebook, so you can refer back to your methods.

 

I rinse in deionised water, with Photoflo, and wipe my negs with my piece of windscreen wiper-blade set in a hardwood handle, which i keep sealed and perfectly clean...sometimes just use my squeegee fingers (if i haven't been gardening). I've never had scratches on my negs...frustratingly only when developed in other labs.

 

..

[Lukas F.]

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Ilford provides data sheets for FP4+, HP5+ and DD-X.  Each of them explains how to compensate for higher temperatures.  Of course the numbers mentioned there are only a starting point, but that's always the case with the manufacturer's recommendations (and even more so with the numbers stated on the MDC).

​

​I'd avoid development times of less than 5 minutes, due to fear of uneven development.

​

​As long as the temperature difference between the liquids you use isn't too high you shouldn't run into any problems whatsoever.  IIRC the variation ideally shouldn't be more than 2°C, which is why I try to use everything at room temperature.  (I have several 5l canisters of tap water which I use for washing and one with demineralized water for diluting developers and the final rinses of the film.)  I'd assume that the variation could be quite a bit higher without running into problems though.

 

High temperature differences might cause reticulation.  However, from what I remember I once read about some people trying to "achieve" reticulation on purpose by using liquids of vastly different temperatures and failing to get the desired result.  So modern films from Kodak and Ilford are probably be quite good in that respect as well.

 

If you use quite warm water for washing the film is more susceptible to scratches when you remove it from the reels.  I guess films from Kodak and Ilford are again quite tough in that respect, but nevertheless I'd rather err on the side of caution and handle them (even more) carefully.

​

It's not really relevant for you right now, but still: Below 20°C certain active ingredients in developers might not be active enough to achieve good results.  The water you use for washing shouldn't be colder than 20°C.  Washing with water that's colder than that is much less efficient, therefore you have to wash way longer.  In doubt you could mix up Kodak HT-1a or Kodak HT-2 to test if your washing procedure is good enough.  Especially if one relies on cascade washing that's a good idea--but not only then and not only when using colder water.  Also don't use demineralized water for washing; in general tap water works better.

​

​In addition to the already mentioned Darkroom Cookbook by Anchell I also recommend Way Beyond Monochrome by Lambrecht/Woodhouse.

​

​Have fun!

[RayD28]

Ilford provides data sheets for FP4+, HP5+ and DD-X.  Each of them explains how to compensate for higher temperatures.  Of course the numbers mentioned there are only a starting point, but that's always the case with the manufacturer's recommendations (and even more so with the numbers stated on the MDC).

​

​I'd avoid development times of less than 5 minutes, due to fear of uneven development.

​

​As long as the temperature difference between the liquids you use isn't too high you shouldn't run into any problems whatsoever.  IIRC the variation ideally shouldn't be more than 2°C, which is why I try to use everything at room temperature.  (I have several 5l canisters of tap water which I use for washing and one with demineralized water for diluting developers and the final rinses of the film.)  I'd assume that the variation could be quite a bit higher without running into problems though.

 

High temperature differences might cause reticulation.  However, from what I remember I once read about some people trying to "achieve" reticulation on purpose by using liquids of vastly different temperatures and failing to get the desired result.  So modern films from Kodak and Ilford are probably be quite good in that respect as well.

 

If you use quite warm water for washing the film is more susceptible to scratches when you remove it from the reels.  I guess films from Kodak and Ilford are again quite tough in that respect, but nevertheless I'd rather err on the side of caution and handle them (even more) carefully.

​

It's not really relevant for you right now, but still: Below 20°C certain active ingredients in developers might not be active enough to achieve good results.  The water you use for washing shouldn't be colder than 20°C.  Washing with water that's colder than that is much less efficient, therefore you have to wash way longer.  In doubt you could mix up Kodak HT-1a or Kodak HT-2 to test if your washing procedure is good enough.  Especially if one relies on cascade washing that's a good idea--but not only then and not only when using colder water.  Also don't use demineralized water for washing; in general tap water works better.

​

​In addition to the already mentioned Darkroom Cookbook by Anchell I also recommend Way Beyond Monochrome by Lambrecht/Woodhouse.

​

​Have fun!

 

 

Room temperature will be between 23 and 19 degrees so it sounds like I'll be good.  Thanks for the feedback, Lukas.  

[250swb]

Developing at higher temperatures increases the grain and also needs to be compensated for with shorter times. It would be a good idea just to go all out and see what happens if you develop a roll of HP5 at 23C, personally I like grain but usually aim to increase it by choosing a grainy developer as this doesn't shorten the dev time. Knock a minute off the development time to start with but wherever you end up don't go below four minutes.

[RayD28]

Developing at higher temperatures increases the grain and also needs to be compensated for with shorter times. It would be a good idea just to go all out and see what happens if you develop a roll of HP5 at 23C, personally I like grain but usually aim to increase it by choosing a grainy developer as this doesn't shorten the dev time. Knock a minute off the development time to start with but wherever you end up don't go below four minutes.

 

 

So, if film and developer manufacturers suggest 9 1/2 minutes at 20 C, and the Massive Dev. Chart suggests 8 minutes at 23 C. I will get more grain?  (Those numbers are for example purposes only.)

[Martin B]

I found that other effects make a lot more difference than a slight change in temperature. The Massive Development charts are a good estimate for B&W films, but unfortunately they don't contain any information about agitation which is key from my experience. I am not referring to the difference between stand development and "regular" agitated development - I have seen quite severe differences how the fluid is agitated and in which time intervals. I normally use the Paterson development tank agitator only since I found inversions too aggressive in regard to getting unwanted clunky grain. I agitate every 30" a few rotations with the agitator which always turns out as being fully sufficient. For more sensitive films, I sometimes only agitate every minute with the agitator. 

 

Regarding the original question with temperature, I also cool the water in summer with ice cubes to 17 deg C to achieve 20 deg C when mixed with the developer at a room temperature of 24 deg C. I have never seen a difference if the development was done at 20 or up to 22 deg C. I believe the difference here is very small, barely noticeable. The same goes for color C-41 or E-6 development: I have done the development at the comparable times at 39 to 41 deg C without noticeable differences. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Martin B

[otto.f]

Yes, even rotating the reel (horizontal) or tumbling (vertical) the whole tank is critically different. Rotating the reel horizontally has a different effect at the outside and the inside

[adan]

factors:

 

Fixer activity also tends to drop off rapidly and non-linearly below 18-20° C.

 

To avoid reticulation, avoid going directly from warm solutions to significantly colder ones (an instantaneous drop of more than 5° C) . Warm solutions expand and soften the gelatin emulsion - colder ones will "shrivel" a soft emulsion and produce the wrinkles of reticulation. However, it is difficult to reticulate modern emulsions - better gelatin chemistry. If you want reticulation, putting 22° C warm, wet film into 5° C ice-water should do it, though.

 

Shock cooling of the film across steps can also result in grain clumping, even if the film does not actually reticulate.

 

But a slow reduction in processing temperature (e.g. Dev. 24°, stop 22°, fix 20°, hypo-clear 18°, final wash 15°) won't produce the required "temperature shock."

[Ouroboros]

 In the UK it's perfectly possible to process films at standard recommended temperatures (eg 20C) from dev to fix and wash  in cold running tap water without need of a staggered temperature reduction.  Reticulation will not be a problem.