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Watermarks


RayD28

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I took some shots using FP4+ and developed them in DD-X at box speed.  Most shots have blotches that are inconsistent in size and density.  I'm posting two shots that were consecutively taken (frames 7 & 8) and I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.  

 

A few comments for your consideration:

 

* I use a daylight bag and plastic reels.  I keep the reels clean.

* I washed and rinsed my hands before putting the film on the reel.

* Used a single reel tank.

* I invert for 1 minute and then 10 seconds on the minute.

* I then use Ilford stop bath for 1 minute.

* Then it's Ilford fixer for 5 minutes.

* Then Ilford rinse method -- five, 10, 15, 20 inversions.

* Yesterday I used some a couple of drops of Ilfotech after the rinse process and noticed some soapy bubbles so twice I filled the tank and dumped the water.  That took care of the suds.

* I did not squeegee the film.

* Hung the film vertically in the shower stall for five hours.

* Handled film using fresh white cotton gloves.

* Stop bath and fixer diluted per ilford recommend mix.

* My tap water is hard.

* Scans made with V600.  Adjusted for clipping using Epson software and then imported to LR.  Shots posted have no LR adjustments.  

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Edited by RayD28
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Here is the next frame.

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My tap water is hard as well. What I do is to use for rins finishing destilled water a a last step for approximately 15 minutes and then I use the salad spinner to remove the rest. No water agent, no squeeze, no watermarks

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Agree with the post above - use distilled water from a bottle purchasable in a grocery store as final wash. Pour 250 ml of distilled water onto the reel which has still the developed film rolled inside. Pour a bit on top and on bottom of the reel, and then on the side and into the film lever. This is sufficient wo rinse off most of the hard/regular water drops. Then hang the film to dry, don't squeeze. Simply let the drops evaporate or rinse off. 

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Mixing the chemistry in destilled water (what is generally a good idea) will not prevent the film from the watermarks if using the hard tap water for rinsing

Edited by Tmx
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Mixing the chemistry in destilled water (what is generally a good idea) will not prevent the film from the watermarks if using the hard tap water for rinsing

 

Well, of course not. I wrote in addition to rinsing in distilled, also mix using distilled.

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I live in a hard water area as well and do get some watermarks despite using a wetting agent in the final rinse water. I hang the film up and wipe off the excess water around the sprocket holes with my wet fingers but do not wipe down the frames except to wipe off any large blobs of water, avoiding touching the emulsion. Usually you can rub off any small watermarks if they are on the back of the film once it is dry. Just did that this afternoon with a test roll in a pre-war Kodak Retina 1.

 

The mark on your first picture looks quite big which seems unusual and the streak on the second picture does not look like a watermark.

I ought to use distilled water but don’t. I have got some as it was recommended for mixing pyro developer.

 

I think the best thing to avoid them is using wetting agent in the last rinse for a minute or so before taking out the spiral. Use proper photographic wetting agent, not washing up liquid.

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We have an under-sink reverse osmosis filter for drinking water, so I fill a couple of 1 gallon jugs from it and store them with my darkroom chemicals. RO filtering is almost to distilled water purity, so I use it for mixing and all film rinsing and washing. For washing I use the Ilford method of 3 tank fulls with lots of inversion agitation instead of a running water wash, which saves water and has been shown to give equivalent results. Using a 1-reel stainless tank I use about a half gallon of water per roll of film. After the 3-fills Ilford wash I use a final dip in RO water with 2-3 drops of flo before hanging to dry, which helps keep droplets from forming on the film, but is so dilute it doesn’t leave deposits.

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I think the best thing to avoid them is using wetting agent in the last rinse for a minute or so before taking out the spiral. Use proper photographic wetting agent, not washing up liquid.

 

Not from my experience - wetting agent didn't stop watermark residues at all - I tried both with regular detergent liquid and with photographic wetting agents. They both did nothing - don't even see much difference in regard to dust accumulation on the film when drying. I found best is simply rinsing with distilled water, I am not using any wetting agent anymore. 

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Not from my experience - wetting agent didn't stop watermark residues at all - I tried both with regular detergent liquid and with photographic wetting agents. They both did nothing - don't even see much difference in regard to dust accumulation on the film when drying. I found best is simply rinsing with distilled water, I am not using any wetting agent anymore. 

 

Do you have soft water, or a water softener?

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My tap water is hard as well. What I do is to use for rins finishing destilled water a a last step for approximately 15 minutes and then I use the salad spinner to remove the rest. No water agent, no squeeze, no watermarks

 

 

Agree with the post above - use distilled water from a bottle purchasable in a grocery store as final wash. Pour 250 ml of distilled water onto the reel which has still the developed film rolled inside. Pour a bit on top and on bottom of the reel, and then on the side and into the film lever. This is sufficient wo rinse off most of the hard/regular water drops. Then hang the film to dry, don't squeeze. Simply let the drops evaporate or rinse off. 

 

 

Ray, your issue is only in part due to rinsing. It would be best to also mix your chemistry in distilled water.

 

 

Mixing the chemistry in destilled water (what is generally a good idea) will not prevent the film from the watermarks if using the hard tap water for rinsing

 

 

Well, of course not. I wrote in addition to rinsing in distilled, also mix using distilled.

 

 

I live in a hard water area as well and do get some watermarks despite using a wetting agent in the final rinse water. I hang the film up and wipe off the excess water around the sprocket holes with my wet fingers but do not wipe down the frames except to wipe off any large blobs of water, avoiding touching the emulsion. Usually you can rub off any small watermarks if they are on the back of the film once it is dry. Just did that this afternoon with a test roll in a pre-war Kodak Retina 1.

 

The mark on your first picture looks quite big which seems unusual and the streak on the second picture does not look like a watermark.

I ought to use distilled water but don’t. I have got some as it was recommended for mixing pyro developer.

 

I think the best thing to avoid them is using wetting agent in the last rinse for a minute or so before taking out the spiral. Use proper photographic wetting agent, not washing up liquid.

 

 

We have an under-sink reverse osmosis filter for drinking water, so I fill a couple of 1 gallon jugs from it and store them with my darkroom chemicals. RO filtering is almost to distilled water purity, so I use it for mixing and all film rinsing and washing. For washing I use the Ilford method of 3 tank fulls with lots of inversion agitation instead of a running water wash, which saves water and has been shown to give equivalent results. Using a 1-reel stainless tank I use about a half gallon of water per roll of film. After the 3-fills Ilford wash I use a final dip in RO water with 2-3 drops of flo before hanging to dry, which helps keep droplets from forming on the film, but is so dilute it doesn’t leave deposits.

 

 

Not from my experience - wetting agent didn't stop watermark residues at all - I tried both with regular detergent liquid and with photographic wetting agents. They both did nothing - don't even see much difference in regard to dust accumulation on the film when drying. I found best is simply rinsing with distilled water, I am not using any wetting agent anymore. 

 

 

Do you have soft water, or a water softener?

 

 

Soft water, but without my final distilled water rinse I will have water droplet stains on my negatives, too. 

 

 

 

Well, this was like playing a game of Clue and I've solved the mystery.  The wife did it and it was in the bathroom!

 

I told my lovely bride that I am spending a lot of time touching up the film I developed.  She said it's her fault because she took the film hanger off the shower head and accidentally dropped the film onto the shower floor.  I just checked the floor and it's still wet and gunky from this morning so it was wet and gunky when she dropped the film yesterday afternoon.  She said she didn't mention it yesterday because she thought what I don't know won't hurt anything.  

 

I'm looking forward to using distilled water throughout the developing process.  Thanks for everyone's analysis and advice!  

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Well, this was like playing a game of Clue and I've solved the mystery.  The wife did it and it was in the bathroom!

 

I told my lovely bride that I am spending a lot of time touching up the film I developed.  She said it's her fault because she took the film hanger off the shower head and accidentally dropped the film onto the shower floor.  I just checked the floor and it's still wet and gunky from this morning so it was wet and gunky when she dropped the film yesterday afternoon.  She said she didn't mention it yesterday because she thought what I don't know won't hurt anything.  

 

I'm looking forward to using distilled water throughout the developing process.  Thanks for everyone's analysis and advice!  

 

Good one - made me smile this morning :) !

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Good one - made me smile this morning :) !

 

Same here when she told me what happened.  She's a sweetheart.  She's never once complained about me digging deeper into this expensive hobby.  In fact, when I have told her I'm thinking about a purchase she says it's ok if that is what I want to do.  There was no way I was going to complain about the dropped film.  

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Hehe, I'm glad you figured out what the problem was.

​Nowadays I rinse my films once with distilled water and then again with distilled water plus some wetting agent (though with a slightly higher dillution than the manufacturer states).  Only that made the watermarks disappear for good; even though the tap water around here is rather soft.  I'm glad that virtually all other people on this planet don't seem to have to resort to such extreme measures to achieve good results.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Same here when she told me what happened.  She's a sweetheart.  She's never once complained about me digging deeper into this expensive hobby.  In fact, when I have told her I'm thinking about a purchase she says it's ok if that is what I want to do.  There was no way I was going to complain about the dropped film.  

Glad your issue is resolved. I am in the same boat and developed my first film this weekend. I had to get special permission to do final wash and drying in the bathroom though. :)

 

I also have some question on my process and I am starting another thread.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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