vinicio Posted July 23, 2018 Share #1 Posted July 23, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi all, I have this lens, second version, that few years ago I sent to Leica to apply the bit code. The lens worked perfectly until few weeks ago when, switching to 50mm, either from 28 or 35, at all the aperture values, I seen on all the images a sort of coloured shadow or ghost, as in the image attached. the image is an example so don't take it as a "piece of art" but it was good to enhance the problem the lens has. Of course I'll send the Lens to Wetzlar but i would like to know if anyone already had this "experience" or which could be the cause of. Unglued lens? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! THX Vinnie Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! THX Vinnie ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/286853-tri-elmar-mate-something-is-happened/?do=findComment&comment=3560058'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Hi vinicio, Take a look here Tri Elmar MATE; something is happened.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mdemeyer Posted July 23, 2018 Share #2 Posted July 23, 2018 That image looks like it has a very bright area (water) at the bottom and this lens is know for flare when there are bright areas outside the image area. Do you see it on an image of a more uniform subject? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 23, 2018 Share #3 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) What camera body is it? I suppose it could be lens flare, but if you have just started making long exposures the following explanation is the alternative view. With my recent Leica bodies, M240 and now M10, they leak enough light around the area of the coding sensor over long exposures to create the effect you highlight (your leak is coming from the lower area of the camera/lens flange), and often it's far worse depending on length of exposure. The M10 in particular leaks like a sieve. I think on a sunny day anything over five seconds exposure and you risk light seepage, some lenses make a better seal than others, and sometimes the lens casts it's own shadow on the body to reduce the effect. I guess you've suddenly noticed it because the rebates machined into the flange to code it make it easier for light to leak across and into the body. So what to do. Well this is a known issue and has been talked about and proven on the forum around the time the M240 was released. The actions you can take are a bit clumsey, and are only really needed for long exposures. What I do is carry in my camera bag a ladies hair scrunchy that I 'borrowed', and fit this around the lens nearest the body to act as a light baffle. I can get very long exposures doing this. Or you could wrap your lens cloth around the lens but it can then blow away. Use your hand to create a dark shadow as well, but it needs to be close and you may knock the camera. But until I lost it the very best thing was a neoprene gaiter meant to keep crude off the lower bearings of a mountain bike headset. It was open ended and had Velcro at each end so just wrapped around when it was needed. Edited July 23, 2018 by 250swb Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinicio Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share #4 Posted July 23, 2018 Thanks a lot for your replies Body is M9-P with sensor replaced; the effect is always present, also on images with fast shutter speed (125 or up) and at all aperture values. Flares... I was also addressed to these but the effect is always in same position Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2018 Share #5 Posted July 23, 2018 Your pic is too small to be sure but looks like usual flare at 50mm with the MATE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted July 23, 2018 Share #6 Posted July 23, 2018 At the same lighting (contre-jour), my MATE always show flare at 50mm setting. I think that it's a known "flaw" of MATE (as well know as Tele-Elmarit-M 90mm "thin"). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2018 Share #7 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Just shot this masterpiece to show what the lens can do at 50mm. Reproductible at will when there are highlights into or around the frame. Edited July 23, 2018 by lct 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted July 23, 2018 Share #8 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Found the couple that I took some years ago at "Les Arceaux, Montpellier": Monochrom and 28-35-50 set at 50mm with few centimeters placings points difference Didn't realize what happened without liveview, but I "supposed" flare was there... Same settings for the two Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! .. my helpful wife with her hand prevent the sun from hitting the lens, but the bright sky took over for some flare in this second pic Edited July 23, 2018 by a.noctilux 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! .. my helpful wife with her hand prevent the sun from hitting the lens, but the bright sky took over for some flare in this second pic ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/286853-tri-elmar-mate-something-is-happened/?do=findComment&comment=3560160'>More sharing options...
MarkP Posted July 23, 2018 Share #9 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) Typical flare from bright light source within the image from MATE at 50mm. Explains the hate of my love-hate relationship with my v2 MATE. Edited July 23, 2018 by MarkP 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 23, 2018 Share #10 Posted July 23, 2018 Oh my God… I never had the MATE… but is such behavior really usual with this lens ? I mean, a.noctilux example is not so surprising… it's indeed a "borderline" taking, sun in straight front... something odd can well arise… but lct example is stunning : is it really sufficient to have some bright area around the frame to get such a strong halo ? If so… no surprise it has been a short-lived lens… 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wda Posted July 23, 2018 Share #11 Posted July 23, 2018 It seldom happens at 28 or 35 settings. Care in choosing viewpoint and clever use of my hands also negates flare happening. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 23, 2018 Share #12 Posted July 23, 2018 I use the version 2 of the MATE for more than 15 years now, mostly on slide film and in a vast variety of lighting situations. My copy has so far not shown this behaviour, but many other users have indeed reported this behaviour. I do believe that using a lens hood will likely decrease the probability of seeing this behaviour (and I use my MATE with the original lens hood most of the time), but I would not rule out that there is some sample variation between lenses of this type. Cheers, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 23, 2018 Share #13 Posted July 23, 2018 [...] lct example is stunning : is it really sufficient to have some bright area around the frame to get such a strong halo ? [...] It is i'm afraid, in case of strong highlights at least. Outside of my pic above the whole table was very bright. Now it is a well known issue of this lens at 50mm. People challenging this issue are not used to shooting those kind of pics i suspect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 23, 2018 Share #14 Posted July 23, 2018 ... People challenging this issue are not used to shooting those kind of pics i suspect. I have shot so many different lighting situations with this lens that I would be surprised if this problem had not surfaced at some point. For example, I do use the lens a lot in the mountains in winter, involving many shots with large parts of sunlit, glaring snow layers next to parts with deep shadows. Never encountered any flare problems. But I will keep trying . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted July 23, 2018 Share #15 Posted July 23, 2018 .... for more than 15 years now, mostly on slide film... Perhaps there is a decisive difference between using the lens with film and with a digital sensor. There has been a long discussion in the german part of the forum about similar „light patches“ some users experienced with a 75mm Summicron and in some cases with a 50mm Summicon (non. Asph). One theory was that the issue is caused by reflection from the sensor - perhaps together with some inner part of the lens housing. Perhaps there are no similar reflections from the film surface. So it would be interesting to see, if the „light patches“ occur as well with film as with the digital sensor under identical circumstances. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinicio Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share #16 Posted July 23, 2018 Thank you all again; I was aware about the flares but never had this "strong" side effect; probably because never used the 50mm with long exposures. I'll try some of the solution suggested and keep you in the loop. Best Vinicio Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 24, 2018 Share #17 Posted July 24, 2018 There has been a long discussion in the german part of the forum about similar „light patches“ some users experienced with a 75mm Summicron and in some cases with a 50mm Summicon (non. Asph). One theory was that the issue is caused by reflection from the sensor - perhaps together with some inner part of the lens housing. Perhaps there are no similar reflections from the film surface. As to the 75 Summicron - yes. it has a concave rear surface, that acts like a "mirror lens" and will reflect (yet again) a semi-focused reflection of the sensor back to the sensor, making a central "hot spot." Any time there is a central (not edge) bright area against a dark background. Studio shot shot below made against an unlit, black velvet background - the only possible source of this 75 cron central flare is from the bright subject itself, being reflected off the sensor and reflected again, semifocused, from the curved rear lens element. Even the slightest recomposition moving the brightest highlight away from the center of the picture eliminates the flare - the reflection geometry is not longer the same. Doesn't apply to the 50 Summicron - but that is known to flare on film anyway. Different process. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! However, I think the angled MATE flare at 50mm, as from the OP, is more like that from the 90mm TE "thin," or as you say, from the inside of the lens housing. Due to the long amount of "hollow tube" behind the rear element when set to 50mm (red lines my addition). 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! However, I think the angled MATE flare at 50mm, as from the OP, is more like that from the 90mm TE "thin," or as you say, from the inside of the lens housing. Due to the long amount of "hollow tube" behind the rear element when set to 50mm (red lines my addition). ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/286853-tri-elmar-mate-something-is-happened/?do=findComment&comment=3560581'>More sharing options...
lct Posted July 24, 2018 Share #18 Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) This MATE's flare is indeed specific at 50mm and disappears more or less by simply changing focal length to 28 or 35mm. BTW film and long exposures make no difference AFAIK. Edited July 24, 2018 by lct 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 24, 2018 Share #19 Posted July 24, 2018 ... or as you say, from the inside of the lens housing. Due to the long amount of "hollow tube" behind the rear element when set to 50mm (red lines my addition). Andy, I fully agree with what you have said about the reflection process in the Summicron 75mm. But why would the long(er) amount of "hollow tube" behind the rear element of the MATE be prone to cause any reflection? It is all matte black and well baffled (or corrugated), and other Leica lenses have much longer "hollow tubes" behind their last element (and are not known to flare). And I am with lct that long exposures will not cause any more pronounced flare than short exposures. Film, however, may not reflect quite as well as the surface of a digital sensor which is perfectly flat, as opposed to film which should be perfectly flat but in reality is not. Whether that accounts for a noticeable difference with regard to the flare problem discussed here is beyond my knowledge. Cheers, Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 24, 2018 Share #20 Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) Well i'm no techie at all but this flare issue is so obvious (edit: to me) that i'm not sure i can add anything to what i said above, except that i have always heard of this problem, be it on film or digital. Couple of links about that below. http://www.leica-users.org/v24/msg11306.html https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/tri-elmar-28-35-50.67508/ Edited July 24, 2018 by lct Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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