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Let's all encourage Carsten - making a new program f converting DNG files/ HDR images


aXs

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This would be really great especially if the algorithms chosen create a different and unique look compared with many of the raw converters on the market. E.g., we can see that Olympus's raw converter is quite different from Adobe camera raw. Also would like the developers to consider an interface like the old Softimage|3D program.

 

Yann, I worked for 3 years at Softimage, at the time that 3D was being transitioned to XSI, but I am not sure what you mean with an interface like SI|3D? Front, top, right, perspective? :)

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If I can strongly encourage everybody - if you have code and want to do something commercial, that's fine, but if you're not doing anything commercial, then release it into the public domain as open source code.

 

There's nothing worse than good code sitting idle on one person's hard drive....

 

Sandy

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This would be really great especially if the algorithms chosen create a different and unique look compared with many of the raw converters on the market. E.g., we can see that Olympus's raw converter is quite different from Adobe camera raw. Also would like the developers to consider an interface like the old Softimage|3D program.

 

chanyr,

Carsten said in his post that he is a profi graphics programmer. I assume most graphics profis use some flavour of "Softimage/ 3D" graphic programs. What in your opinion is the main use-interface difference between the old version of Softimage (pre-Microsoft ownership?) and the current version? And why would that be special for Leica-camera users?

 

Axel

 

Axel Sanders

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Axel, I am a graphics programmer, not artist. I programmed on Softimage|3D and Softimage|XSI, ie. created parts of it, I didn't use it. They are modeling/animation/rendering programs for creating visual effects and imagery. Hollywood are users of these programs, for example. My current job is programming several modules of a renderer called 'mental ray', which is included in most major animation programs, such as Softimage|XSI, Maya and 3DS Max. Again, I don't use it, I create parts of it. I have just significantly increased mental ray's support for the EXR format, for example.

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as the editor-in-chief, I did almost all the reviews... editorial responsibility... coordinating people... encouraging contributions... designing the website....

 

Carsten, as I said, you are a modest person.

Those are impressive organisational job-skills. So why don't you create and lead a open source project for a new Leica-interface/program for converting DNG / HDR images and "encourage contributions" - like you did before you joined the LUG forum.

 

There is surely enough talent and energy on the LUG and among LUG-friends.

And it would be so cool for a native Leica-user interface.

 

I hope your interesting discussions about DNG/HDR are not secreted away with PM dialogues, but letting us all follow the "brain-storming" phase.

 

Axel

 

Axel Sanders

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I am a graphics programmer, not an artist... I programmed... Hollywood uses it... for example a renderer program called 'mental ray'... it is included in most major animation programs... I have significantly increased 'mental ray's' support...

 

Carsten, you modestly say you're "not an artist", but your Leicaphotography (posted here on the LUG and on your photoblog) do show your fine artistic sense of color and light.

Surely, your 'Softimage and Mental Rays' experiences must have influence your "eye".

 

So now I think I understand your experiments with largeformat panorama-montages - they suggest the scale of Hollywood bigscreen projects.

 

Axel

 

Axel Sanders

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...if you're not doing anything commercial, then release it into the public domain as open source code... there's nothing worse than good code sitting idle on one person's hard drive...

 

Sandy I love your sense of idealism: you, Carsten and Issac have already the basis for a team creating Leica-open source DNG/ HDR programs - go for it!

 

Axel

 

Axel Sanders

 

(Sandy, compliments for your CornerFix program - I haven't used it yet, but I will)

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Hello Sandy!

The question would be in what language (C++?) do you program and are your routines.

All is in plain C.

And bear in mind going to your mother tongue excludes the likes of me......:D

I won't exclude anybody. But, if should explain something deep technical I will prefer german, because my english is not so fit.

Well, I will answer questions in english, but the answer will be reduced to my knowledge of the english language and not to my experiences of the certain case.

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Hello Carsten!

I am interested, and I speak German fairly well, but my mother tongue is Danish or English, depending on how you count :) I have only lived in Germany for 5 1/2 years. I will contact you off list.

Sorry, I have assumed your are german, but nevertheless, my ability to understand english is much higher than my ability to speek and write in the foreign language...

Anyway, I don't care what platform the routines are written for, I would likely rewrite them anyway. I am more interested in code samples as "documentation" and algorithms, to be honest. It would be faster to get up to speed with working code in front of me, that's for sure.

This is exactly the same methode I use :-)

I have collected source code, patent text, literature and something similar and have done ALL the work (coding) for myself. I have even partially rewrite the JPEG library and have a complete self written TIF/DNG 'library'.

And there is one additional issue I have (you may understand, because you also came from OS/2 :-) and this is the so called 'mainstream'. In short words, I hate the 'mainstream' and I refuse to program for 'mainstream'.

In my opinion, we are here in a (sometimes) tiny market with the Leica M8 and we should act according to this fact. And there is one EXCELLENT software, Capture One, which is - it is not only my opinion, it is my conviction - the best one for Leica DNGs (and of course for all other brand raw data) because of the unbeaten Bayer demosaicing (optimized AHD-interpolation), the 'film-like' response curve and finaly the methode of noise reduction (both luminanz and chrominanz).

Leica M8 is NO product for and of the 'mainstream', so users are well informed, to not use tools of the 'mainstream', because they will easyly pull down M8 to the (low) level of 'mainstream'.

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...in my opinion... there is one excellent software, Capture One, which is - it is not only my opinion, it is my conviction - the best one for Leica DNGs... Leica M8 is no product for...the 'mainstream'....

 

issac, I am surprised with your statement!

 

Now I think carstenw has to go on record about it.

 

Considering the fact this thread started a discussion around Carsten's M8 website

http://www.digital-leica.com - and his blog - that he was working on new M8 user-interfaces/programs for converting DNG/ HDR images... for the Leica M8 camera.

 

Carsten told us he works on major renderer programs - multi-million dollar projects for Hollywood Studios - (I googled Carsten's "Mental Ray" renderer program) and note it is created by a software company called "Mental Images" http://www.mentalimages.com. If you visit the site there is a list of every major studio using Carsten's programs.

 

----previous quote:

carstenw: "I am a graphics programmer, not an artist... I programmed... Hollywood uses it... for example a renderer program called 'mental ray'... it is included in most major animation programs... I have significantly increased 'mental ray's' support

-----

 

Now we all know how Carsten can afford to pay for the quanity of Leica glass in his new A&A camera bag <grin>

 

Axel

 

Axel Sanders

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Yes, programming can pay well, even if it sucks your soul out and makes you go home tired. I cannot afford to buy all the lenses I have, even on my salary, however, and have a loan for the difference. Having no wife, no ex-wife, no children (except one I borrow sometimes), no dog and no car, most of my income is disposible, which helps.

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Hello Carsten!

Yes, programming can pay well, even if it sucks your soul out and makes you go home tired. I cannot afford to buy all the lenses I have, even on my salary, however, and have a loan for the difference. Having no wife, no ex-wife, no children (except one I borrow sometimes), no dog and no car, most of my income is disposible, which helps.

Same to me, with the exception, I have two cars :-)

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Carsten, I like the way Softimage|3D divided everything into separate tasks (Modelling,Motion, Tools etc) and made it easy to know which mode you're in. Lightroom takes this approach as well as it separates tasks into Library, Develop, Print etc.

 

The other thing I like about Softimage|3D is that all operations have text buttons and it is very functional and and its quick to get at things and you can work fast. Somehow, colorful icons are more confusing to my brain and I have to translate them. What I didn't like about Lightroom was the way the pane on the right works, An example is making corrections or adjustments in develop mode, alot of scrolling and mousing is needed to access different features as you made small adjustments to the picture.

 

I think we wouldn't need a Top,Perspective view :D but it would be nice if the software allows for two windows side by side and we can compare the differences as we make adjustments in color temperature etc, something like original and current view, and we can swop them and then continue on the new current view.

 

Axel, I think Softimage|XSI is similar to Softimage|3D except that XSI is much more sophisticated and the interface reflects this. I think the M8 is very text centric in its interface. E.g., the Play button has the word play instead of a triangle icon and a Delete button instead of a trash icon, its menus do not have icons in comparison to Canon (icons along the top) and Nikon (along left side). The M8 interface is very straightforward and functional and I think something like the Softimage|3D interface might appeal to Leica users.:)

 

This is all very exciting and I hope to hear more about how its going.

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...Carsten, I like the way Softimage|3D divided everything into separate tasks (Modelling,Motion, Tools etc)... Axel, I think Softimage|XSI is similar to Softimage|3D except that XSI is much more sophisticated... This is all very exciting and I hope to hear more about how its going.

 

chanyr, I'm glad you find it very exciting - so do I.

I just hope that carstenw will keep us all up to date on the LUG forum - and not "secreted away" on PM-dialogues among a select few techies/geeks. <grin>

 

After all, we are all concerned about the best possible evolution of all Leica user-interfaces. Cameras and workflow systems. (And just think, maybe soon comes the Leica R10 to suppliment the M8!

 

Axel

 

Axel Sanders

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Carsten, I didn't know you were involved with OS/2. I'm a huge fan of the OS and have been running it in my business for the past 20 years. In fact until last year it was the only OS I would allow until I installed a WSBS2003 with XP clients for the admin staff. Still to this day production runs on WSeB SMP servers and the clients are all Warp 4 or eCS. Talk about 24/365 uptime other OS's can still only dream about. I came across a workstation the other day that had not been rebooted for the past 8 years. :eek:

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It seems that EDM/2 is back online after a hiatus of some years:

 

Main Page - EDM2

 

I was involved from March/94, and was the editor from Sep/96 to Feb/99. Here is my old design and my old personal page:

 

EDM/2 - The Electronic Developer Magazine for OS/2

 

EDM/2 - Carsten Whimster

 

The name is a bit of an anacronism now: Electronic Developer Magazine for OS/2 = EDM/2. Everything is electronic nowadays :) I was very active in the move from distributing INF files to having a real web presence. Those were fun days, but when IBM pulled the plug due to pressure from Microsoft, I moved to BeOS, and then to the Mac after some unhappy years on NT 4 and Windows 2000. I never did forgive Microsoft for being such a nasty competitor in every way back then. Some interesting products died because of pressure from Microsoft.

 

Anyway, back to the task at hand. Axel, I don't promise to post all the details here. However, it looks like writing a TIFF reader may be more work than writing a DNG reader, at least up until the point of choosing a decent demosaicing algortihm. I have read the (very brief) DNG spec, and am working my way through the TIFF/EP draft standard. DNG is a variant of TIFF 6.0 and TIFF/EP. At this point I know enough to read in a DNG, but not enough to interpret what I have read in :) Pretty useless.

 

I will probably end up playing with DNG reading for a while, and using libTiff to get up to speed quickly there. My main goal is to get a usable HDR program working, not to write all the parts myself, but the long-term goal would probably include writing the DNG converter, if I ever find the time for any of all this. First I need to get back up to speed on Cocoa programming for the Mac OS X, and at some point I need to sit down and write out what I want the first versio of the program to be able to do, and how the interface for that should work. Then I need to write a long-term plan, and make my short-term plan in such a way that the long-term plan fits in nicely.

 

But as I said, this is all just an idea in my head, and I will play with it until I have no more time or until something gets done. No promises.

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