Leica S3

[John McMaster]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

No interest, also that will soon be old hat when the H6D150c comes out ;-)

 

john

[Stuart Richardson]

Neil: I will never own another Hasselblad product. Long story short: they totally refuse communication with end users, even in markets where there is no real support, like Iceland. I bought a brand new X5 from them and it had problems under warranty and I still had to pay 1600 dollars in shipping and "preventative maintenance" on a scanner less than six months old bought from a local dealer. Then they have the gall to charge 26,000 dollars for a scanner whose software has not been updated in more than ten years, and whose CCD is even older than that. No way. I would take Fuji or Phase over them a thousand times. And I am sure that it is a good camera and lens...they are assembled by Fuji after all. (Yes, I know it is a Hasselblad design and they have done a lot of work. My qualms are not with the engineers, they are with the management and customer service etc). 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Stuart Richardson

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest]

No interest, also that will soon be old hat when the H6D150c comes out ;-)

 

john

there doing an upgrade from 100 to 150 for small $$$$

Neil

[Guest]

Neil: I will never own another Hasselblad product. Long story short: they totally refuse communication with end users, even in markets where there is no real support, like Iceland. I bought a brand new X5 from them and it had problems under warranty and I still had to pay 1600 dollars in shipping and "preventative maintenance" on a scanner less than six months old bought from a local dealer. Then they have the gall to charge 26,000 dollars for a scanner whose software has not been updated in more than ten years, and who CCD is even older than that. No way. I would take Fuji or Phase over them a thousand times. And I am sure that it is a good camera and lens...they are assembled by Fuji after all. (Yes, I know it is a Hasselblad design and they have done a lot of work. My qualms are not with the engineers, they are with the management and customer service etc).

Stuart

Whenever Iha e contacted Hassablad in Europe they have got back to me within 48 hours........I have talked to them on the phone and they have been great......sorry to hear That you have not received similar treatment........

 

Neil

[Vieri]

Among other distractions . . . I was wondering how you like the S lenses on the SL.  How do they compare to the SL primes?  (I'm aware that the AF is much slower).

Rob

 

 

Hello Rob,

 

you might be interested in this:

 

https://vieribottazzini.com/2016/08/leica-s-adapter-l-review.html

 

and this:

 

https://vieribottazzini.com/2016/09/leica-super-elmar-s-24mm-vs-leica-vario-elmarit-sl-review.html

 

hope this helps, best regards

 

Vieri

[Chaemono]

Among other distractions . . . I was wondering how you like the S lenses on the SL. How do they compare to the SL primes? (I'm aware that the AF is much slower).

Rob

Rob, everything that Vieri said, of course, and a couple of observations on the rendering from my side of the APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120/2.5 vs. the 90 Summicron-SL. I took a few snaps already because I was curious. The S lens resolves so much detail without being overly sharp. The SL lens resolves equal amount of detail but is crazy sharp.

 

In addition, the SL lens is characterized by what Peter Karbe describes in the RDF interview here: https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/09/setting-a-new-standard-with-leica-sl-lenses-a-discussion-with-peter-karbe-at-photokina-2016/ as We’ve tightened and raised the curve, so that f/2 will offer a look that is similar to f/1.4. It is very unique and special. And, at the same time, will offer greater sharpness at the point of focus. The contrast of in focus and out of focus will be more pronounced, which produces a very 3D effect.

 

Below are links to four DNGs. The angle is slightly different to make the object of focus equally large in the frame so this may add a bit to the 3D effect of the 90-Summicron-SL.

 

 

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120/2.5

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g127623396-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=sEYcOHHXgQzpmOf27gSQBm6BxnQhFrdUHKSEP0IAOnA=

 

90 Summicron-SL

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g320701965-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=YBH80tSZy9B80qrgQKc3kGk5w98Ew2zPgmWarx17IVg=

 

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120/2.5

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g300529736-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=QDP7uuM7JUPwESiV3UHOlxVEtupD4-qqzyfVwq6wV58=

 

90 Summicron-SL

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g463666157-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=gEomjFuKyEzc-_GwoP5HYsMtycyJoS0_cse9ygF46Go=

Edited September 17, 2018 by Chaemono

[helged]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Rob, everything that Vieri said, of course, and a couple of observations on the rendering from my side of the APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120/2.5 vs. the 90 Summicron-SL. I took a few snaps already because I was curious. The S lens resolves so much detail without being overly sharp. The SL lens resolves equal amount of detail but is crazy sharp.

 

In addition, the SL lens is characterized by what Peter Karbe describes in the RDF interview here: https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2016/09/setting-a-new-standard-with-leica-sl-lenses-a-discussion-with-peter-karbe-at-photokina-2016/ as We’ve tightened and raised the curve, so that f/2 will offer a look that is similar to f/1.4. It is very unique and special. And, at the same time, will offer greater sharpness at the point of focus. The contrast of in focus and out of focus will be more pronounced, which produces a very 3D effect. 

 

Below are links to four DNGs. The angle slightly different to make the object of focus equally large in the frame so this may add a bit to the 3D effect of the 90-Summicron-SL.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, the SL-primes belong to a new optical territory. High-resolving, bitingly sharp, very flat field, essentially no colour aberrations (but remember that the SL does tweak the files, so the dng-files are a mix of optics and optical corrections).

 

The S-lenses are also sharp and high-resolving, but not to the extent of the SL-primes.

 

Just imagine what the SL-primes would deliver on the existing S - or the rumoured S3... That being said, a tad of smoothness - as in the S-lenses - has it's own character.

[ZHNL]

I’d like to know why it behaved like a f1.4 lens with F2 aperture. I know that with high performance lens with high pixel desenty sensor, DOF can be considered thinner at pixel level. However, SL is only at 24M. There are many modern lens can resolve that easily at f2 even f1.4 at least at center.

 

Nikon recently also claim their Z f1.8 S lens behave like f1.4 that was also quite unclear what they mean. I can only guess that because of wide Mount and short flange distance, the lens have less vignette that let more light in equivalent to f1.4 lens.

Edited September 18, 2018 by ZHNL

[Stuart Richardson]

I wonder if it is to do with flatness of field? If a lens has a very flat field it will often appear to have less depth of field, because it will only be sharp exactly at the point of focus. But a lot of lenses are designed with a curved field...it helps correct other aberrations, and in certain situations it can be helpful (it can sharpen the foreground, for example, though at expense of the detail in the field at the point of focus). But if it is flatness of field alone, then the 120 APO Macro should not seem any different in this regard, as it has a very flat field. Not so much for the 70mm... 

[BernardC]

I’d like to know why it behaved like a f1.4 lens with F2 aperture

It's because the spread in the plane of focus between red, green and blue wavelengths is much tighter than it was in previous generations of lenses. This makes the apparent depth of field more shallow, and the peak sharpness higher.

 

To give you a practical example (with made-up numbers), a previous generation may have focused green light at 5 meters, red at 5.1 meters, and blue at 4.9 meters. A newer lens might have a spread of 2cm instead of 20 cm. This leads to less apparent depth of field: 4.9 meters used to be tack-sharp in at least one colour, but now it's out of focus in all three colours.

 

Obviously, it's not an exact equivalence. The look of old-style lenses is much different from newer lenses. Some images work better with older lenses, some with newer lenses.

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

Neil: I will never own another Hasselblad product. Long story short: they totally refuse communication with end users, even in markets where there is no real support, like Iceland. I bought a brand new X5 from them and it had problems under warranty and I still had to pay 1600 dollars in shipping and "preventative maintenance" on a scanner less than six months old bought from a local dealer. Then they have the gall to charge 26,000 dollars for a scanner whose software has not been updated in more than ten years, and whose CCD is even older than that. No way. I would take Fuji or Phase over them a thousand times. And I am sure that it is a good camera and lens...they are assembled by Fuji after all. (Yes, I know it is a Hasselblad design and they have done a lot of work. My qualms are not with the engineers, they are with the management and customer service etc). 

 

Sounds like they should have worked on the quality of their products and customer service rather than trying to make expensive copies of Sony products or try to swim in the mirrorless market for which they had zero Knowhow.

[ZHNL]

I wonder if it is to do with flatness of field? If a lens has a very flat field it will often appear to have less depth of field, because it will only be sharp exactly at the point of focus. But a lot of lenses are designed with a curved field...it helps correct other aberrations, and in certain situations it can be helpful (it can sharpen the foreground, for example, though at expense of the detail in the field at the point of focus). But if it is flatness of field alone, then the 120 APO Macro should not seem any different in this regard, as it has a very flat field. Not so much for the 70mm... 

Initially, I would guess the opposite. With lens have backward Field Curvature, you will have perceptively shallower DOF. However, this FC character should not be associate with lens aperture. We can't simply say a high performance f2 lens is behave like f1.4 lens because f1.4 lens have more curvature in my opinion. 

For Nikon's claim, I only can guess their new S glass offer similar T stop as their f1.4 lens before, which seems the case based on the new sample images I have seen. 

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/ Puts think their f1.8S glass were derived from f1.4 design, only a guess though. Don't know if it is true. 

 

It's because the spread in the plane of focus between red, green and blue wavelengths is much tighter than it was in previous generations of lenses. This makes the apparent depth of field more shallow, and the peak sharpness higher.

 

To give you a practical example (with made-up numbers), a previous generation may have focused green light at 5 meters, red at 5.1 meters, and blue at 4.9 meters. A newer lens might have a spread of 2cm instead of 20 cm. This leads to less apparent depth of field: 4.9 meters used to be tack-sharp in at least one colour, but now it's out of focus in all three colours.

 

Obviously, it's not an exact equivalence. The look of old-style lenses is much different from newer lenses. Some images work better with older lenses, some with newer lenses.

 

OK! To me, it is better to just say a very high performance (or whatever) f2 glass than F2 glass can behave like a f1.4 glass with f2 aperture. Nobody say OTUS behave like a Noctlux even it is a f1.4 Lens with greater APO performance. 

 

This will start a new debate that whenever manufacture develop a slower lens, they can claim their lenses behave a stop faster because high performance.

 

To make that claim, maybe a simple DOF illustration from Leica can back up that claim with comparison between 90SL cron APO and any manufacture 85mm f1.4 glass to inspect focus transition and bokeh/blur characteristic.

 

Sorry for the side track. 

[ZHNL]

Those prices are acceptable only for highly specialized professional tools, like Phase One cameras, Hasselblad cameras, etc. Super-high resolution sensors, etc.

 

Sales of the new Hasselblad, Fuji and Leica S systems are to amateur photographers (photographers not making a living from it), and the range of prices they are willing to pay is far lower.

 

If Leica places the S3 price in the 28.000 range and they sell a lot of them (and lenses), that is great. Good for Leica. But I seriously doubt it.

 

I'd like to see it priced at $20000~$24000. but like I mentioned earlier, I am not surprised at all if it is 28k. I would guess they will keep S007 in the line. S007 at 15~20k 37.5M and S3 at 28K 64M seems a reasonable line up. Between 64M to 100M, only 1.2X such as 30inch to 36inch print difference. 

 

As for 150M MF camera, those are all more than 40K, are they?

 

get a Hassy H6D100c......I got a bra d new one for $23k.......lenses are good too

Neil

 

Hasselblad H6D-100c Medium Format DSLR Camera retail is 33k. It seems not unreasonable for Leica charge 2.8K for 64M MF camera. It has many benefit over Hassy if those are important to you. 

[Chaemono]

The 75 Summicron-SL and the 90 Summicron-SL blur the background exactly like the 75 Summicron-M and the 90 Summicron-M, respectively. Actually, the M lenses produce a tiny bit more buttery, smoother OOF areas but one has to look very closely. See here for the 75 comparisons https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nW5Qwt/

 

When Peter Karbe says "that f/2 will offer a similar look to f/1.4" in the RDF interview about the SL Summicrons he is referring to the fact the "the contrast of in focus and out of focus will be more pronounced, which produces a very 3D effect." He is not referring to background blur.  The perception of this 3D effect will, of course, be also affected by how blurred the background is. So, I took some test shots with the 50 Summilux-SL and the 75 Summicron-SL and then magnified the background of the Summicron picture by cropping it and, therefore, made the OOF area appear in the frame more blurry. And guess what, the Summicron starts to look like the 50 Summilux-SL which has this incredible depth rendering.

 

Here are

the DNG of the 50 Summilux-SL

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g239724897-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=-85pSh1t7UqdrRyDZ9_0DGnDWw2_ZMbCmg_UQ0ct9Ug=

 

and the DNG of the 75 Summicron-SL

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g49281344-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=eInCGikXarQXBaRqfF6cpRNega80_NyrIh4wqahHMRA=

 

Here is a link to the JPEGs: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-KxkVZh/

 

And below are crops for the compression required by LUF.

 

And if someone insists, I can do SL + 90 Summicron-SL vs. α7R III + FE 85/1.4 GM. I will need earplugs for the AF motor of the Sony lens, though. The background of the Sony pictures will look more blurred, no doubt, but the 3D effect will still be more pronounced with the 90 Summicron-SL.

 

50 Summilux-SL

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

75 Summicron-SL

 

[ZHNL]

The 75 Summicron-SL and the 90 Summicron-SL blur the background exactly like the 75 Summicron-M and the 90 Summicron-M, respectively. Actually, the M lenses produce a tiny bit more buttery, smoother OOF areas but one has to look very closely. See here for the 75 comparisons https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-nW5Qwt/

 

When Peter Karbe says "that f/2 will offer a similar look to f/1.4" in the RDF interview about the SL Summicrons he is referring to the fact the "the contrast of in focus and out of focus will be more pronounced, which produces a very 3D effect." He is not referring to background blur.  The perception of this 3D effect will, of course, be also affected by how blurred the background is. So, I took some test shots with the 50 Summilux-SL and the 75 Summicron-SL and then magnified the background of the Summicron picture by cropping it and, therefore, made the OOF area appear in the frame more blurry. And guess what, the Summicron starts to look like the 50 Summilux-SL which has this incredible depth rendering.

 

Here are

the DNG of the 50 Summilux-SL

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g239724897-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=-85pSh1t7UqdrRyDZ9_0DGnDWw2_ZMbCmg_UQ0ct9Ug=

 

and the DNG of the 75 Summicron-SL

https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g49281344-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=eInCGikXarQXBaRqfF6cpRNega80_NyrIh4wqahHMRA=

 

Here is a link to the JPEGs: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-KxkVZh/

 

And below are crops for the compression required by LUF.

 

And if someone insists, I can do SL + 90 Summicron-SL vs. α7R III + FE 85/1.4 GM. I will need earplugs for the AF motor of the Sony lens, though. The background of the Sony pictures will look more blurred, no doubt, but the 3D effect will still be more pronounced with the 90 Summicron-SL.

 

50 Summilux-SL

50 Summilux-SL_crop_lufv.jpg

 

75 Summicron-SL

75 Summicron-SL_crop_lufv.jpg

Thanks for sharing sample and your thought about those new SL lens. Your samples have been really helpful for me to understand the superiority of new SL glass. I have no doubt they are wonderful. I personally might take issue at high performance in focused area at cost of higher contrast bokeh. S glass reach a surprisingly good balance on this IMO even for their best performance ones such as 120APO and 180APO. 

 

Sony 85mm GM is their star lens in alpha line up. There is no onion bokeh highlight or not much cat eye bokeh highlight with very smooth rendering and color. I wonder if you notice any onion bokeh from SL summilux or Summicron. S glasses unfortunately have those even with more than 5k a piece and stop down a little, the bokeh highlight are no longer rounded. How about SL?

 

For real comparison between S and SL glass, S owners might want to see downsized S image to exact SL image so we can get a total sharpness and rendering from system POV. Your comparison is solid data point for anyone consider S glass on SL. From price point of view, it make sense given 2nd hand S glass are pretty cheap now, but from size and especially size for given speed point of view, I don't feel it is a good fit for SL system unless people run both parallel. 

[Chaemono]

Sony 85mm GM is their star lens in alpha line up. There is no onion bokeh highlight or not much cat eye bokeh highlight with very smooth rendering and color. I wonder if you notice any onion bokeh from SL summilux or Summicron. S glasses unfortunately have those even with more than 5k a piece and stop down a little, the bokeh highlight are no longer rounded. How about SL?

Onion bokeh, no, cat's eye towards the corner of the frame, yes. But that's the case with the Sony FE 85/1.4 GM as well. See here https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4043651 cat's eyes with the Sony, not round.

 

From price point of view, it make sense given 2nd hand S glass are pretty cheap now, but from size and especially size for given speed point of view, I don't feel it is a good fit for SL system unless people run both parallel. 

The 120/2.5 Summarit-S is a macro lens so it adds something I didn't have for the SL, I love the detail and smoothness at the same time, and I paid only €4,700 new for it with full Leica warranty because the box was slightly damaged. The lens costs new €7,400. When the S3 comes out next week the S system will regain momentum because it will offer something no other manufacturer has and I will be able to sell the lens for more than what I paid if I wanted to.

[peterv]

People are testing SL glass now in the S3-rumour thread?     

 

Give us more dirty little secrets and crazy specs     

[Chaemono]

Trying to kill time until the announcement.

[peterv]

I understand Chaemomo, and thanks for sharing your findings. Hopefully we’ll find out next week what the unique features of the new S are!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[ZHNL]

Onion bokeh, no, cat's eye towards the corner of the frame, yes. But that's the case with the Sony FE 85/1.4 GM as well. See here https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4043651 cat's eyes with the Sony, not round.

 

The 120/2.5 Summarit-S is a macro lens so it adds something I didn't have for the SL, I love the detail and smoothness at the same time, and I paid only €4,700 new for it with full Leica warranty because the box was slightly damaged. The lens costs new €7,400. When the S3 comes out next week the S system will regain momentum because it will offer something no other manufacturer has and I will be able to sell the lens for more than what I paid if I wanted to.

Actually, 85GM’s cat eye performance is one of best I have ever seen from any 85mm fast glasses. It outperform monster sigma art and Zeiss otus with 86mm front ring in this mechanical vignette performance. Stop down to f2 as SL cron wide open, you will see none cat eye with very smooth bokeh. I don’t have the lens as I can’t make myself shoot Sony after multiple try, but this lens is wonderful. I have no experience with its AF though. This is focal for portrait lens, for me, Bokeh and DOF transition is a big consideration.

 

Yes, shoot macro on Sl make sense with 120 S, that is a star lens every S owners love. I have seen it on sale at $2400-3000 for S version and $3200-3600 for CS version. A bargain and no brained for its performance. Hence my comment about 2nd hand price. Thanks for Leica, our S glasses worth little compare to retail. I got some bargain but also got some heavy hit on price as an earlier adopter.

 

Again, sorry for OT.

Edited September 19, 2018 by ZHNL