bags27 Posted July 4, 2018 Share #1 Posted July 4, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) https://nikonrumors.com/ The easy answer is that Leica doesn't consider other camera makers direct competition. But we all know that Leica and Nikon took close account of each other in the 1950s and 1960s with regards to range finders and subsequent development of SLRs. There was originally a rumor that Nikon's new camera(s) would be modeled after the Df. There are still folks within Nikon who appreciate Nikon's pre-digital traditions and believe the Df a missed opportunity, and if they do eventually roll out a mirrorless resembling it, it will be the closest thing to a Leica in form and emotional satisfaction. And there's a huge amount of legacy Nikon glass (I think I own most of it :-)) waiting to be fitted onto mirrorless cameras by folks who still enjoy manual focus (many of whom are now Leica owners). The main disappointment to me--assuming the specs are accurate--is that the EVF isn't cutting edge, which will soon belong to Sony: https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/29/sony-mirrorless-camera-evf/ IF the rumored pricing is correct, Nikon is clearly taking aim at Sony's a7riii and a7iii and in a couple of years will certainly have a solid market share. But in producing its own alternatives with rapid response technological innovation, Nikon will become a viable alternative to Leica's SL. I raise this within the context of the recent, much lamented Leica C-M (which had a short production run of one month and zero cameras!). A smaller form, higher mps Leica FF body at around $4500 would be ballpark a response to Nikon. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 4, 2018 Posted July 4, 2018 Hi bags27, Take a look here Will impending Nikon Mirrorless Affect Leica's Planning?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Gobert Posted July 4, 2018 Share #2 Posted July 4, 2018 Nikon missed this boat a couple of years ago when they introduced the failed Nikon 1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanD Posted July 4, 2018 Share #3 Posted July 4, 2018 Of course Leica will pay attention to what Canon and Nikon are doing. As much as we want to believe that Leica exists on another playing field, the reality is that the Sofort. Panasonic rebadges, and Huawei deal all show that Dr. Kauffman understands the world today. Leica cameras are supposed to be built to last. Therefore, many owners are holding onto their cameras longer and do not constantly upgrade. Leica lenses last. Therefore, many owners are doing the same with lenses... So instead of surviving on the small clientele it has, it has to work on building new customer relationships and generating more and new sales. They have done a great job with continuous growth in a very tough market, but just as smartphones took away the consumer pocket digital camera for most people, an M clone takes away from Leica. What if Nikon or Canon decide to incorporate a thin sensor stack? How many people would choose a FF mirrorless camera from them instead of a M10? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 4, 2018 Share #4 Posted July 4, 2018 https://www.flickr.com/groups/2442671@N22/pool/ What if Nikon or Canon decide to incorporate a thin sensor stack? How many people would choose a FF mirrorless camera from them instead of a M10? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 4, 2018 Share #5 Posted July 4, 2018 Nikon missed this boat a couple of years ago when they introduced the failed Nikon 1. Chances are they will have a 35mm lens before Leica though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 4, 2018 Share #6 Posted July 4, 2018 https://nikonrumors.com/ Good to see that IBIS is included. Hopefully it gives Leica the much needed kick in the butt... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_W Posted July 5, 2018 Share #7 Posted July 5, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) "Leica doesn't consider other camera makers direct competition". That's only true for M cameras, for everything else they are in competition and losing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 5, 2018 Share #8 Posted July 5, 2018 Leica dropped the idea of developing a DSLR ‘R’ model stating at the time that they couldn’t compete in that market (against Canon and Nikon). Ever since then they’ve been coming up with half baked ‘DSLR’ solutions, none of which have been a roaring success. Who knows what they’re coming up with next. A revamped SL seems the most likely. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 5, 2018 Share #9 Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) they're not really competing..that's why they're losing https://www.lightstalking.com/leica-goes-strength-strength-camera-demand-declines/ "Leica doesn't consider other camera makers direct competition". That's only true for M cameras, for everything else they are in competition and losing. Edited July 5, 2018 by frame-it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share #10 Posted July 5, 2018 Well, both Nikon AND Leica reported very strong earnings last year (Leica by.inference as a privately held company) so in a broad sense neither is losing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 5, 2018 Share #11 Posted July 5, 2018 sure..but in nikons case >> https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2117830/nikon-shuts-its-china-camera-factory-latest-victim-do-everything https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Nikon-exits-Brazil-as-digital-camera-cutbacks-continue 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share #12 Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) sure..but in nikons case >> https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2117830/nikon-shuts-its-china-camera-factory-latest-victim-do-everything https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Nikon-exits-Brazil-as-digital-camera-cutbacks-continue Interesting....and yet they reported significantly improved earnings over the previous year, so they are rapidly readjusting to current realities. I very recently returned from 3 weeks of being a tourist in Scandinavia, bringing only my Q, but being curious about what other tourists were carrying. One Leica SL; a surprisingly small number of Sonys; no Olympus that I could make out; a fair number of Canons, but significantly more Nikons (I would guess mostly the 7100, 7200, 7500 half-sensor series) with consumer zooms than all other cameras altogether! Now, a further post on the Nikon mirrorless shows nicely shaped cameras (remind me a bit of Contax film cameras) with real shutter speed dials to be formally announced by the end of this month. They are certainly aimed at the Sony market technologically but will be very, very tempting emotionally to many Leica users, especially if, as you say above, the sensor stack is thin--or can be made thin by Kolari. https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/04/nikon-mirrorless-camera-specs-recap.aspx/#more-123111 Edited July 5, 2018 by bags27 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted July 5, 2018 Share #13 Posted July 5, 2018 I love reading threads like this. All the happy, hopeful Leica enthusiasts being supportive of Leica's product efforts... The Nikon in styling looks just like a Digilux 3 or Panasonic L1 DSLR, but slimmer—a handsome camera! I hope Nikon does a better job of their mirrorless than Canon and Sony have. On a personal note, I'm unlikely to buy anything that doesn't perform as well with my Leica M and R lenses as my M-D or upcoming CL does, because I have no particular need or desire to buy any new lenses at all. Whether the new Nikon will entice others looking to spend money for a Sony A-whatever to go their way instead of to Sony or Leica, and whether that detracts in any substantial way from the audience who would buy a Leica, well, I have no idea. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 5, 2018 Share #14 Posted July 5, 2018 Well, both Nikon AND Leica reported very strong earnings last year (Leica by.inference as a privately held company) so in a broad sense neither is losing. Sony is bucking the trend in FF interchangeable lens camera sales, and last year passed Nikon in the US... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dpreview.com/news/1896381164/sony-is-now-2-in-the-us-full-frame-interchangeable-lens-camera-market.amp Overall earnings are of course another matter. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share #15 Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) I love reading threads like this. All the happy, hopeful Leica enthusiasts being supportive of Leica's product efforts... The Nikon in styling looks just like a Digilux 3 or Panasonic L1 DSLR, but slimmer—a handsome camera! I hope Nikon does a better job of their mirrorless than Canon and Sony have. On a personal note, I'm unlikely to buy anything that doesn't perform as well with my Leica M and R lenses as my M-D or upcoming CL does, because I have no particular need or desire to buy any new lenses at all. Whether the new Nikon will entice others looking to spend money for a Sony A-whatever to go their way instead of to Sony or Leica, and whether that detracts in any substantial way from the audience who would buy a Leica, well, I have no idea. Thanks for this. The main point of my OP wasn't exactly how the discussion evolved--and my own post wanders away from it, too. My main point wasn't to express personal interest or not in the proposed cameras, but to wonder whether Nikon's sudden repositioning into the mirrorless market--something that Leica has already successfully done with the SL and CL--will have any affect on Leica's planning. Of course, we have no idea about that, but it might well be an added consideration, since there are historical connections between Leica and Nikon. It's easier to treat Sony as a computer/applicance company and make fun of their build quality, form factor, and menu and just sort of minimize the quality of their glass (though it is now very good and improving all the time). It's harder to ignore Nikon if its mirrorless are anything close to the Df in aesthetics and can accommodate the vast amount of excellent Nikon glass. And that's especially true at both ends of the focal length where M glass can't easily go--their excellent super wides and professional telephotos. Nikon may never be quite as good as Leica, but it will be the one camera solution for a lot of folks at >50% less cost for body and lens. Edited July 5, 2018 by bags27 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 5, 2018 Share #16 Posted July 5, 2018 Just to heckle a bit - Sony may be a computer company - but its camera division took over the heritage of Konica-Minolta. Nobody can deny that pedigree - not only bodies, but lenses as well. Not to forget the connection to Zeiss either 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted July 5, 2018 Share #17 Posted July 5, 2018 Just to heckle a bit - Sony may be a computer company - but its camera division took over the heritage of Konica-Minolta. Nobody can deny that pedigree - not only bodies, but lenses as well. Not to forget the connection to Zeiss either Sony's lens offerings are a bit of a mix of conventional, old fashioned even (their E mount 50 Macro is an 'extending' lens - an older type design which in some ways is good but in others not - and hardly 'state-of-the-art', their fixed focal wides rely on the excellent 28mm f/2 and add on wide conversion lenses, again not bad, but old fashioned in concept and optically ok but not wondrous) and they lack too many models in too many areas. I'm using an A7II and find it easier to use Canon lenses via a Metabones adapter simply because Sony don't produce the lenses I want. I think that the connection to Zeiss is an interesting one but again I've seen poor examples of what should be exceptional Zeiss designs. Eventually they may sort things out but despite the heritage they all too often look like a new entry into the photographic market rather than a mature and confident supplier. A mirrorless Nikon able to operate as well as their dSLRs and take FULL advantage of existing F mount lenses could be quite an act. We'll see. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 5, 2018 Share #18 Posted July 5, 2018 Just to heckle a bit - Sony may be a computer company - but its camera division took over the heritage of Konica-Minolta. Nobody can deny that pedigree - not only bodies, but lenses as well. Not to forget the connection to Zeiss either Let’s not forget that Sony dominates the sensor market.... https://petapixel.com/2017/08/01/sonys-sensor-domination-marches-record-profits-pour/ Jeff 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
onasj Posted July 5, 2018 Share #19 Posted July 5, 2018 Leica "just" needs to release a full-frame camera with a current-generation sensor that moves a bit front-and-back to fine-autofocus M lenses (which would be roughly focused manually) and they'll instantly leverage their unsurpassed M lens stable against the competition's much weaker lens lineup, while capturing the conveniences (AF, outstanding EVF) that have come to be expected for current mirrorless cameras in the $3000+ range. Not a trivial task, but what an exciting development that would be. And not unprecedented (Contax AX, Mamiya Six). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted July 5, 2018 Share #20 Posted July 5, 2018 Except that I personally have absolutely no interest in autofocus adaptation like that. I've owned and used a number of AF cameras now and, at best, autofocus leaves me only having to work with a different and more complex set of problems in camera control rather than being the panacea that many people seem to find it. In many ways, I don't want my camera to do the job. I want my camera to do what I want, and I'll make the mistakes... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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