willemr Posted June 29, 2018 Share #21 Posted June 29, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not sure, but by comparing 2 different light values e.g. through the lens and the front (there are two bits that might register light) one could guestimate an aperture. Small aperture -> low light through the lens while the other thinghy registers intense light might indicate a small aperture -> guestimate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 29, 2018 Posted June 29, 2018 Hi willemr, Take a look here Leica M10 FW-Update 2.4.5.0 brings an improved Auto ISO option and more!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted June 29, 2018 Share #22 Posted June 29, 2018 I am gobsmacked by the new Decisive Moment Indicator! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 29, 2018 Share #23 Posted June 29, 2018 Spirit level. Come on! Thank you, Leica, for the firmware improvements. Nonetheless, I'm very disappointed that the spirit level hasn't been brought back with this update, especially since it's been 1.5 years since the M10 was delivered. On what basis do you assume that the spirit level can be restored simply with firmware? There does have to be an accelerometer or other hardware in the camera to measure "tilt." And while the M10 can distinguish vertical and horizontal pictures (usually), that can be done with a simple binary "on/off" tilt switch (0° tilt or 90° tilt) - a level requires a device that can distingush 12° from 14° from 16°, etc. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 29, 2018 Share #24 Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) On what basis do you assume that the spirit level can be restored simply with firmware? If spirit level existed recently, it seems likely to be 'in there' today awaiting activation. No? Edited June 29, 2018 by pico Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 29, 2018 Share #25 Posted June 29, 2018 If it existed recently, it seems likely to be 'in there' today. No? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 29, 2018 Share #26 Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) Not sure, but by comparing 2 different light values e.g. through the lens and the front (there are two bits that might register light) one could guestimate an aperture. Small aperture -> low light through the lens while the other thinghy registers intense light might indicate a small aperture -> guestimate Correct - the little round window on the front, up and left from the "red dot," is a secondary light meter. Sets the brightness of the frameline illumination and the red meter LEDs according to the ambient light (so you aren't blinded by the camera's internal lights in dim light). Additionally - and ever since the M8 12 years ago, (so not a mystery) the camera can compare the amount of light measured there with the amount of light measured by the internal meter reading through the lens at shooting aperture, and make a (very) rough guess as to how much the lens is stopped down. But the external meter cell has a fixed field of view - thus it will see a wider or smaller part fo the world than the lens in use, which adds to the "approximateness" of the guess as to the aperture used. Don't be surprised (or come weeping to the forum) if the estimated aperture in EXIF is wrong by up to 2 stops one way or the other from the actual aperture you know you set - you know you set f/5.6, but the camera may "guess" anywhere from f/3.5 to f/8 based on comparing the two meter readings, and the lens you used (90 or 50 or 21), or if there was a bright light or dark object just outside the lens area (but within the field of the secondary meter), or vice-versa, or whether you had any exposure compensation set. Edited June 29, 2018 by adan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 29, 2018 Share #27 Posted June 29, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) If spirit level existed recently, it seems likely to be 'in there' today awaiting activation. No? Ummm - no - The M10 body was redesigned form the ground up to be more compact - smaller battery, and several other things removed, compared to the "recent" M240 (microphones and speakers for shooting video, for example). No reason at all to assume that the fine-discrimination tilt-meter chip was not tossed out as "expendable" as well - a cubic mm here, a cubic mm there, they all add up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted June 29, 2018 Share #28 Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) I think the M 262 has no video. Does it have the spirit level? Edited June 29, 2018 by UliWer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 29, 2018 Share #29 Posted June 29, 2018 It still has the "fat" M240 body volume, video or not. ~3cm3 of space not available in the M10. https://goo.gl/images/QagRHh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abram Posted June 29, 2018 Share #30 Posted June 29, 2018 I just find it interesting to have such a big version jump. 1.10.4 to 2.4.5? I wonder why such a radically different version number? Either way I'm happy they added the things they did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 29, 2018 Share #31 Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) No reason at all to assume that the fine-discrimination tilt-meter chip was not tossed out as "expendable" as well - a cubic mm here, a cubic mm there, they all add up. It should be more expensve to delete the 'tilt-chip' than to let it be. Edited June 29, 2018 by pico Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 29, 2018 Share #32 Posted June 29, 2018 It should be more expensve to delete the 'tilt-chip' than to let it be. No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 29, 2018 Share #33 Posted June 29, 2018 No. elaborate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted June 30, 2018 Share #34 Posted June 30, 2018 I’m pleased with the update - worthwhile changes and no fluff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted June 30, 2018 Share #35 Posted June 30, 2018 Nice update. Love the Auto ISO change and the addition of Profiles to Favorites. Thanks Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 30, 2018 Share #36 Posted June 30, 2018 elaborate It was removed to save space. It’s not there to reactivate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted June 30, 2018 Share #37 Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) What a useful update for a change, especially extending exposure time to 4 min. Aperture estimation and improved LV/EVF frame rate is welcome too. Pedaes, "corrupted"? It's not like the electronic spirit level pops up in hot pink in the viewfinder and shouts at you whenever you turn the camera on. It is NOT a gimmick but increases the versatility of the camera for tripod work and especially with WA lenses. It is the only thing I really missed when upgrading from the M240. However, I do agree with you that the M10 is by far the best digital RF to date. Edited June 30, 2018 by MarkP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 30, 2018 Share #38 Posted June 30, 2018 Pico, the M10 was a ground-up redesign. Everything from the M240 series was "deleted" - sensor, range/viewfinder, processor, battery, buttons, shutter, circuit boards, LCD, the works. Nothing was "let be." And all-new components in an all-new layout were designed according to one driving principle - "What will fit in a camera 4mm thinner?" Zero-based space budgeting, prioritized based on customer feedback. Several previous M240 features and devices didn't make the cut. A couple were added, or restored from before the M240 (frame lever and ISO dial). https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/02/the-leica-m10-a-discussion-with-stefan-daniel-and-jesko-von-oeynhausen/ Now that link has a lot of pix of the M10 innards. Maybe someone can spot a precision "tilt-sensor" suitable to drive an electronic level, still included, showing that it is just a question of firmware enabling it. My gut says - no, it was considered expendable for the majority of users, and a waste of precious space. But perhaps not. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted June 30, 2018 Share #39 Posted June 30, 2018 How does an electronic level work? I'm sure it's not a mercury switch... Anyone know? ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 30, 2018 Share #40 Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) Not to clutter the main function of this thread too much - but many ways. Anything that will respond to gravity like the bubble in a regular level, with another "something" that will sense that response to gravity just as our eyes gauge the position of the bubble in the level. Generically classed as inclinometers (slope) or accelerometers (direction of gravitational pull). Liquid capacitative inclinometer. Think of a hollow coin set on edge, and half-filled with conductive liquid - as the disk turns/rolls on edge, the liquid stays in the bottom due to gravity and will indicate, via contact/conduction with/between capacitor plates either side, where "down" is. Or nanomasses on the end of piezoelectric nanoarms, that put a stress on the arm depending on which way/how much gravity is pulling the mass (imagine holding an exercise weight at arm's length - stress!) - said piezoelectric arm then outputting measureable electric current in proportion to the stress. Or a resistive foil strain gauge plus a mass. Or a lens mass and LED laser shining through it - gravity displaces lens, which displaces light rays from the laser (think: tilt-shift lens), which displacement can be measured as angle of the gravitational force....etc. etc. In any case you need two axes. For roll sensing (left to right horizon tilt) and pitch sensing (lens pointed up or down) - most chips include both. The basic measuring device can be pretty small - it is the usual chip packaging (protective box and input/output pins) that puts a lower limit on the size. https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/inclinometer-module.html NB: if a camera (not M10) or lens (not M lenses) already has built-in image stabilization, that is already measuring tilts and accelerations, and a level display on the back LCD can be piggy-backed onto the IS measurements. Edited June 30, 2018 by adan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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