New firmware for m10 arrived

[evikne]

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Sometimes a picture you thought were ruined at first glance appear to be worth keeping anyway.

[pico]

There is a difference between deleting pictures now and then, even a large number - and thinking that "Delete All" used over and over, can substitute for good solid card reformatting once you've copied everything to other storage (computer, iPad, etc.).

 

The second can lead to a build-up of invisible "garbage" on the card - which eventually leads to card errors.

 

I would like to see the so-called garbage or at least a complete description of what it is.

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[jkcampbell2]

I would like to see the so-called garbage or at least a complete description of what it is.

 

A quick Google of "deleting in camera vs formatting" returns lots of advice on the subject. Here's one from a Lexar employee that gives a good explanation.  Cheers, jc

 

https://www.diyphotography.net/not-delete-images-memory-card-using-camera/ 

[LBJ2]

A quick Google of "deleting in camera vs formatting" returns lots of advice on the subject. Here's one from a Lexar employee that gives a good explanation.  Cheers, jc

 

https://www.diyphotography.net/not-delete-images-memory-card-using-camera/ 

 

 

I've been deleting images in-camera with the seven heavily used digital cameras I've owned over the years. Honestly, never had a problem.

 

After reading the comments on this 2016 reference you posted ( interesting read), and after doing some Googling on the subject myself, I was surprised to find this is one of those hot debates that have been going on for some time already. 

 

For me, I am very happy/grateful Leica added it to the M10 and I'll keep doing what I am doing. But am now more aware there could be an issue.

[jkcampbell2]

I've been deleting images in-camera with the seven heavily used digital cameras I've owned over the years. Honestly, never had a problem.

 

After reading the comments on this 2016 reference you posted ( interesting read), and after doing some Googling on the subject myself, I was surprised to find this is one of those hot debates that have been going on for some time already. 

 

For me, I am very happy/grateful Leica added it to the M10 and I'll keep doing what I am doing. But am now more aware there could be an issue.

 

+1 Like my dad always said "measure twice, cut once"! Wait, that's not it... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"!  To be honest I've never personally talked to anyone who deletes in camera ever having problems but you're right, there's a lot of discussion out there on the subject. jc

[pico]

A quick Google of "deleting in camera vs formatting" returns lots of advice on the subject. Here's one from a Lexar employee that gives a good explanation.  Cheers, jc

 

https://www.diyphotography.net/not-delete-images-memory-card-using-camera/ 

 

He was the Director of Marketing. I do not consider that as a source of technical authority. In addition he has no authoritative accounts of card failures due to deletion in his esteemed career. It never happened.

Edited July 3, 2018 by pico

[dunos]

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This is how I imagine something like this starts... at some point in the dim and distant past there was a camera manufacturer who didn't implement file system operations correctly in their firmware. They had spent all their time on developing the code to write data to the card as quickly as possible. When they came to handle deleting files and file system fragmentation when writing files they found they had run out of project time. When the camera was released it was fine at writing data but as soon as a card became too fragmented it started to mangle everything. The manufacturers help desk needed a quick fix and asked the developers what to do. The developers said that if people were to format the card in the camera and try not to delete pictures in camera then it would fix the problem. Fast forward to today and this quick fix becomes standard practice across all cameras and memory cards, regardless of how well the file system code has been implemented.

 

See also: Using mobile phones at petrol stations (really really old screen tech may have been dangerous... but these days?) and giving batteries a full overnight charge before use (true for a NiCad... but does any phone or camera use NiCad any more?)

[Leicaec421]

Just got an email from Leica. The new firmware is officially released.

[M11 for me]

The card in my M10 is big enough so that I never had to put in my second spare card. So my single card I treat like that:

- During a day I frequentlich delete single shots that I do not like

- Back home I insert the card into my Mac to import thr photographs into LR

- Then Iit the card back into my M10 and delete the shots on the card (not before waiting for the backup being terminated on my Mac)

- I never format this card in use (except the first time that I have used it when it was new and when I am asked to do so because of Firmware update as an example)

 

And all the years before I had Leica I did exactly the same (and still do) with my Canon cameras (whole 5 series).

 

I never ever had any problem.

 

And finally: I never put a card that „belongs“ to the M10 into a Canon (and vice versa).

[M11 for me]

Do you mean firmware version 3?

[Lucentis]

Leica photographers and the cruel digital world is a story full of misconceptions   

[run23]

re: deleting on card vs. other way - I'm sceptical that this is ever a real problem. I've been deleting in camera for at least 8 years and have never had a problem with a card. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I doubt it is an actual problem.  

[TomB_tx]

I don’t recall ever formatting in-camera; just open a new card, stick it in, and shoot. I delete some in-camera, but usually pop the card into a PC, import through Lightroom, then delete all images from the card in Windows. Never reformatted, never had a card problem with M9, M10, or a few other brands of camera.

I typically use 16 GB cards, various brands, but never have come close to filling up before I copy off and delete files.

I’m amazed at all the card problems people report.

[UliWer]

Leica photographers and the cruel digital world is a story full of misconceptions   

I agree.

 

The new firmware’s workflow to delete pictures is not meant to make deleting pictures more easy but to prevent you from inadvertently deleting pictures.

 

With the old firmware when you had a picture on the display and pressed „Menu“ you were in the delete function. If you now pressed „Menu“ again, the picture was deleted.

 

With the new firmware you get into the dialogue which first warns you that only the next step causes deletion.

 

So the new function helps all those who believe that deleting pictures in the camera should better be avoided.

[pico]

This is how I imagine something like this starts... at some point in the dim and distant past there was a camera manufacturer who didn't implement file system operations correctly in their firmware. They had spent all their time on developing the code to write data to the card as quickly as possible.

 

I would find that to be quite dangerous, and amateur. More likely they accepted auto allocation - let the controller do the work. Bad choice. The low road is better.

Edited July 4, 2018 by pico

[250swb]

Having used film for so many years I've never felt the urge to delete any photos, it's not like you cut individual exposures out of a film strip and throw them in the bin, so why bother deleting failures with digital, except perhaps for vanity? Besides which when I was taught photography we had print critique sessions, where everybody tore into what was wrong with each others photos, and yes photography is mostly about failures, accept it, learn from them, be embarrassed by them, but don't pretend they never happened. So to conclude, buy a big card, a bigger hard drive, and never touch the 'Delete' button and there will never be a problem.

 

I should add that when all my failures are safely stored on my hard drives I refresh the card ready for another day by re-formatting it in camera, it saves so much time.

Edited July 5, 2018 by 250swb

[wattsy]

Having used film for so many years I've never felt the urge to delete any photos, it's not like you cut individual exposures out of a film strip and throw them in the bin, so why bother deleting failures with digital, except perhaps for vanity? 

 

 

Yes, it must be vanity because deleting digital images is exactly the same as cutting frames from a strip of frame.

[Mark II]

Having used film for so many years I've never felt the urge to delete any photos, it's not like you cut individual exposures out of a film strip and throw them in the bin, so why bother deleting failures with digital, except perhaps for vanity?

I delete film scans all the time. Very often I work a scene, choosing the best image from the set (street photography). I also screw up exposure, framing, focus or camera shake all the time - and do not see much point in keeping those frames.

 

Doing this in-camera might be a bit more challenging though :-)

[01af]

... then delete all images from the card in Windows. Never reformatted ...

 

That's a bad strategy because deleting many (all) files means more write operations to the card's memory cells than formatting. So in the long run, you'll wear out the memory card faster. Granted—it won't make that much of a difference. But a difference it is, which is entirely unnecessary, and just a bad habit. To start anew, don't delete the files in the card reader but reformat the card in the camera!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[indergaard]

That's a bad strategy because deleting many (all) files means more write operations to the card's memory cells than formatting. So in the long run, you'll wear out the memory card faster. Granted—it won't make that much of a difference. But a difference it is, which is entirely unnecessary, and just a bad habit. To start anew, don't delete the files in the card reader but reformat the card in the camera!

 

 

That's not how deleting files works. Deleting files doesn't actually delete the data, it just deletes the filesystem (FAT) references to the data and the file name is removed. In the same way that quick-formatting does. Unless you choose secure delete or delete overwrite, of course.