Leica M3 has no Serial Number on top?

[ovonodla]

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Hi, I'm very new to Leica cameras and to this forum so I don't know if this is the best place for this topic so if it's not please point me in the right direction. My grandfather recently found a Leica M3 at a garage sale with the lens and the meter attached. I've been researching the camera for the past few days when I can and I found that these cameras are either Single Stroke or Double Stroke and that you can tell by the serial number on the top plate.

 

However, when I pulled off the meter this afternoon to read the number, there was nothing there. I suspected at first that it may have been worn off but on closer inspection it seems like there was never anything there in the first place, which baffles me. I don't know if this is a common thing but I've looked around the internet plenty and can't find anyone with this issue.

 

Would greatly appreciate any help. 

 

 

Here's a photo of the top plate:

 

https://imgur.com/a/TffiYrR 

[sandro]

Welcome to the forum! Do you have any photo's of the M3? and are you sure that it is a M3?

Did you check if the shutter is working? If so, you will easily find out if it is a double stroke or a single stroke when you move the transport lever.

Lex

Edited June 12, 2018 by sandro

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[box86rowh]

More then likely a replacement top plate. Your picture isn't working. Can you post another?

[sandro]

But what kind of replacement top plate would that be, without any serial number? I have never heard or seen anything like that.

Lex

[earleygallery]

Wary clicking on a link from a new poster........

[ovonodla]

I'm fairly certain it is an M3 from my research. But I may be wrong! That's not out of the realm of possibility.

 

I don't know why that link isn't working, that's bizarre. Re-uploaded the pic here and made sure it worked this time:

 

https://imgur.com/UvXg6vy

[zeitz]

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A replacement top is a new part for a damaged camera.  The old serial number is supposed to be engraved on the new top by the repair facility.  Of course it is a cheaper repair to skip the engraving.  The number of strokes needed to advance the film and cock the shutter (1 or 2) determines whether it is single or double stroke.  The older cameras were double stroke before Leitz changed to different gearing.

[pico]

A replacement top is a new part for a damaged camera.  The old serial number is supposed to be engraved on the new top by the repair facility.

 

At some point Leica stamped a "*" at the end of a serial number when a top was replaced.

.

[sandro]

The advance lever seems to be replaced by something else, judging from the picture. It looks like a black plastic thing, replacing the original. Can you show us some more photos? It starts to intrigue me.

Lex

Edited June 12, 2018 by sandro

[box86rowh]

I am by no means an expert, but I am fairly certin that is a replacement plate that was never engraved as Zeitz pointed out....

[jaapv]

When the factory moved from Wetzlar to Solms, a large number of spare parts were scrapped. Many of those found their way into the replacement parts market, amongst them top plates without number engraving, as that would obviously be added at a repair.

A repairer may well have omitted the engraving, or, as has also be described, made an engraving in the wrong style.

 

I hope you have the goggles for your lens. It appears to be a Dual-Range Summicron.

 

The advance lever is most likely the M4 or M6 type. I too would like to see some more images. As it is it might be a bit of a dog's dinner, but interesting.

[alan mcfall]

I have sent several top plates to Leitz for replacement when this service was available, including from M2M cameras. The new top plate as returned did not have an astrick, but just the exact same serial that was on the old plate, the old plate was susposedly destroyed by Leitz.

 

The astrick(*) seems to have been used only when there were two true duplicate uses of the same serial number.

 

As a small detail, a replacement top plate may have the engraved symbols for the bulb and electronic flash on the  back, from a later engraving such as an M4.  There was a slight evolution in these symbols over time. If you replaced an early camera top plate like an M3 from the first few years at a much later date such as 1980, you may have got the later version of the symbol on your replacement top.  I suspect Leitz updated the flash engraving as it evolved. Perhaps they had only so many early replacement top plates in stock for early cameras, and when they needed more, the new engraving was used.

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Note the small changes in the bulb symbol.  I believe the size of the flash sync connector on the replacement plate was maintained as correct for the earlier camera but only the engraving was changed at some point.  My guess is that if you got a replacement top plate for your M3/M2 before the 1970's it could have the early engraving, sometime after that you may have got the later engraving.

[ovonodla]

The advance lever seems to be replaced by something else, judging from the picture. It looks like a black plastic thing, replacing the original. Can you show us some more photos? It starts to intrigue me.

Lex

 

The black lever is something that also eluded me while looking this camera up as it seemed that every picture I found of it had a silver metal lever. I also have no idea what is going on in the back regarding the bulb/flash symbols as it also looks like nothing I've seen before on the internet. 

 

More pictures:

 

https://imgur.com/a/zei2ync

[sandro]

The advance lever has been replaced by the lever of a M4. So it seems the camera has been in repair long ago.

Lex

[jaapv]

The lens looks extremely hazy, which suggests it has been kept in moist surroundings. Does the camera work more or less? If so, it might be interesting to have it restored. If not, it might be all corroded inside and an economic writeoff. The lens might be cleanable as well - or not. Get an expert repair shop to look at it.

[alan mcfall]

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Here is a new replacement top plate for an M2. As stated by others, these were not normally distributed but exchanged for damaged ones sent to Leitz repair facilities.   The 3 front windows are already in place

[sblutter]

Do you plan on using it?  It may be a 'FrankenCamera' (cobbled together by a good technician) - but that doesn't mean it doesn't have many great shots left in it!

 

I doubt it will fetch much $ on the used market - may as well use it if its working

[wizard]

...

 

The astrick(*) seems to have been used only when there were two true duplicate uses of the same serial number.

 

...

 

Entirely correct. The only known exception to this rule seems to be the batch of Summitar* lenses, which were first Summicron lenses in disguise. However, with the Summitar* lenses, the asterisk was placed close to the Summitar designation, whereas in the case of two true duplicate numbers the asterisk would appear following the serial number.

 

Andy