Question about M9-P strategy

[stray cat]

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Hi,

 

Apologies in advance if this has been specifically covered, but my searching didn't reveal the answers I'm looking for.

 

My brother-in-law has an M9-P which has a defective sensor. He hadn't realized that the free replacement offer was for a limited time - life took over and when he was able to think about using his camera again found that he has a defective camera that he can't use and thousands of dollars tied up in it.

 

I have undertaken to see what is the best way forward for him. He can't afford to have it repaired. So our options, as I see it, are:

 

1. I can pay for it to be repaired, then sell it and give him the proceeds less the cost of repair.

2. Sell it "as is".

3. I can pay for an upgrade to another Leica, sell that, and give him the difference.

 

Does anyone have any advice as to which would be the best way to go, or whether there are any other options? I have not yet rung the local Leica repairers for an estimate of the sensor replacement cost (he is yet to forward me the camera), but have seen costs of between $1,000 and $2,000 USD mentioned, plus a long wait time.

 

Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

[david strachan]

Hi Phil

Your suggestions are generous to your BIL.

 

Maybe ask Leica...they can be generous too.

 

...regards

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[stray cat]

Thank you David. I hadn't thought of asking Leica directly, but I'll send them an email. I appreciate your help.

 

Cheers, Phil

[erl]

Talk to Nikki at Camera Clinic. She will give you clear costing scenarios, and time delays.

 

OTOH, I would compose a truthful sob story regarding your brother in law, quote the serial number of the camera along with purchase date and ask Leica if they would be compassionate. That may involve a FedEx shipping fee to Germany but it would be returned with shipping paid. OTOH, camera Clinic do an excellent job of sensor replacement here in Melbourne (I've had several done). The trick is to convince Leica to pay CC's bill.

 

I wish you luck with a solution.

[stray cat]

Thanks John - I know Nikki (and Laurie) reasonably well by now, I'll give her a call Monday.

 

Leica's website appears to be down for maintenance at the moment but I will do as you and David suggest and contact them directly. I just wish they hadn't ended the support for their defective sensors. However that's life and perhaps they will be able to advise me on my best course of action.

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

[enboe]

Option 27, pay for the repair as a gift to your sister and brother-in-law.  If you're playing with Leica, you likely can afford to spend $1K on your family, just this one time.

 

Eric

[stray cat]

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Option 27, pay for the repair as a gift to your sister and brother-in-law.  If you're playing with Leica, you likely can afford to spend $1K on your family, just this one time.

 

Eric

 

Thanks Eric, that would be a nice thing to do but I am not in a position to do that either. If I spend $1k on my family, there are many, many things that will come before cameras.

 

I heard back from Leica. They said that "unless sensor corrosion was verified by Leica or one of its subsidiaries by August 31st 2017, the repair is chargeable"  - this directive to Customer Care worldwide was to be applied "without exception".

 

Their "customer friendly solution" is "only charging a part of the material cost of the new image sensor (825 Euros + VAT)".

Otherwise there is a table of "upgrade" options to other cameras. I forgot to mention here, though I did mention in my email to Leica, that my brother-in-law Tim's M9-P was the second Leica he'd bought brand new, and the first, an M8, had problems of its own - so he actually acquired the M9-P by a similar upgrade due to his first Leica being a lemon (at my recommendation). So his experience with Leica has been very poor indeed.

 

I've passed their response on to Tim and await his response. Thank you all for your kindness in responding to my request for advice. Unfortunately, it would seem that Leica is not as generous or compassionate as we hoped.

[MarkP]

Agree with speaking with Nikki in CC

 

I think you would struggle to sell the camera in Australia without the sensor upgrade.

 

If the softly-softly approach fails, and I think CC would do what they can, there is another approach.

If the camera was bought in Australia, then Australian consumer law probably overrides Leica's abrogation of their responsibility (well at least Leica Australia).  They sold a new product with a defective component (which has been accepted as such by the company).  A call to the Department of Fair Trading may be worthwhile. This is not an insignificant amount of money involved here.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by MarkP

[stray cat]

Actually that's a really good call, Mark - I hadn't thought of that. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they think.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Best regards, Phil

[MarkP]

Let me know how it goes.  

 

It would be worth telling Dept of fair Trading or Consumer affairs (whomever you call), that registered owners/purchasers were not specifically contacted with the sensor advisory and repair deadline.They certainly have the details of all owners who registered their equipment - I was never contacted but fortunately knew to have my sensor checked and replaced.  In other words, how could one have their camera assessed before the deadline if they were unaware of the recall and deadline.  Further demonstrates Leica's abrogation of responsibility to their customers. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by MarkP

[stray cat]

Thanks kindly, Mark. I've passed your suggestion on to Tim - he has all the details of when he bought the original M8, the exchange to an M9-P etc - so I'll let you know what happens.

[stray cat]

I talked with my brother-in-law Tim today. He actually spoke with Nikki at the camera clinic and ran the options past her. She said she'd be extremely surprised if no-one else had thought of contacting Consumer Affairs about Leica's "support" for this sensor. Anyway after a lot of discussion to and fro the camera is now on its way to me and I will take it to Nikki next week who will have the sensor tested. If it is one of the faulty ones she said they'd replace it and give the camera a thorough going-over for (ouch) $1,500 AUD. Tim said he loves the camera (he's only taken about 400 pictures with it he said) so I think we'll be going that way in the end and he'll keep the camera - and use it. He's just moved up to the Victorian High Country so won't be short of stunning vistas and things to take pictures of. He said he'll find the money somehow - he's about to start building his own house on his land, so I think he'll just make the house that much smaller.

 

All I can say is that it's a good thing for Leica that their products, no matter how faulty or questionably supported they are, attract a dedicated customer base. I wish in this case they had have been more supportive, but I've always (for more than 30 years now) had great support from the Camera Clinic and I'm far more confident if it's in their hands - I know they'll support the continued ownership of the camera. Total cost of his M9-P by the time this is paid for (including the loss he made on the defective M8 and the subsequent upgrade to his current camera) will be in the order of $8000-9000.

 

By the way he checked back through all his emails and, like Mark, never received any notification from Leica about the free sensor replacement scheme terminating.

 

Thanks again all who responded with great suggestions. This is a very supportive forum.

[Graham (G4FUJ)]

Phil,

I hope your brother in law will post photos on here from the High Country!

Well done for helping him out.

[jaapv]

I too, would have the sensor replaced, however painful finacially, as a working M9 is a wonderful camera to use and worth more than the repair cost.

However, I am not sure about the Consumer Law approach, as Leica does replace the sensor at half the replacement cost, in fact, under the price of the sensor, and may well be entitled to a "new for old" fee.

[stray cat]

Thank you sincerely Graham and Jaap. I'll suggest to him that he does post some pictures here.

 

Interestingly, Jaap, Nikki at the local Leica repair centre indicated to him that, in her experience, 80% of M9 owners had had the sensor replaced as they liked the camera, and only 20% had taken the upgrade option.

 

As for Consumer Affairs, their criteria is quite specific - if a product is not "fit for purpose" then the manufacturer is liable to replace it, refund your money or repair it. Clearly a defective sensor fails the "fit for purpose" criteria. Under consumer law the manufacturer must do this at NO cost to the consumer - what it costs the manufacturer is irrelevant. And so should the case be here - Leica should continue to support every defective camera free of charge rather than bringing in some random and arbitrary end date - especially if they don't even bother notifying registered owners of the defective product that they are ceasing to support them (Nikki confirmed to Tim that he is on the books as a registered owner). Nikon (as an example) undertook (eventually) to repair every D600 once enough of a fuss was made by disgruntled owners - and they would have sold a hell of a lot more of those cameras than Leica sold M9s.

 

However in this case that point is moot as Tim decided against going that route.

[earleygallery]

I would imagine that he could still proceed with the repairs and raise the issue with your consumer affairs people, who will not doubt raise it with Leica in turn. If they have side-stepped laws in your country then he could well end up getting a refund for the repairs from Leica.

 

I don't see that you have anything to lose from trying.

[jaapv]

Still an interesting question.- How long is this supposed to apply? Can I claim against Ford for a manufacturing defect in a T-Ford? I think that 5 years might be deemed a reasonable period of function without repair for a digital camera. (Legally speaking, of course, I would be quite upset if that were reality)

 

I agree that it would be a good idea to try anyway.

[earleygallery]

Still an interesting question.- How long is this supposed to apply? Can I claim against Ford for a manufacturing defect in a T-Ford? I think that 5 years might be deemed a reasonable period of function without repair for a digital camera. (Legally speaking, of course, I would be quite upset if that were reality)

 

I agree that it would be a good idea to try anyway.

 

Hi Jaap, you're about right as far as UK law goes (I expect most EU countries will be similar in approach).

 

In the UK under consumer law you should expect items to last a 'reasonable' time. Having just checked, that is deemed up to 6 years in England (only 5 years if you live in Scotland, I guess they must be more heavy handed with their stuff!).

 

Obviously it will depend on the local laws but if you have rights then why not try to apply them?

[ianman]

By the way he checked back through all his emails and, like Mark, never received any notification from Leica about the free sensor replacement scheme terminating.

I don't think anyone ever got any sort of direct notification from Leica, be it an acknowledgement of the issue, the repair program, nothing. I certainly did not. And in fact, when I sent in some images showing the issue I had, the answer from CC was that the spots are no more than dust. Luckily, I didn't give in and they finally accepted my M9 suffered from sensor corrosion. In this instance, I think this is very poor "support".

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[stray cat]

Thanks Ian - that's really interesting as it is another example which directly contradicts what I was told in the email I received back from XX, Complaint Manager, Leica Customer Service:

 

"We informed our registered M customers about this new regulation via Email on 15.05.2017, an official statement was also published on our homepage.". Well, who looks at their homepage? You are certainly under no obligation to do so as a consumer of their products but, on the other hand, they have a duty to actually inform registered users of what is going on with faulty products and, in many cases, this obviously did not happen.

 

They are directly stating they notified their "registered M customers" yet clearly there were people in that group - and, potentially, a significant number of them, who didn't get that memo. I wonder where that leaves them as far as due care is concerned? I agree, it is very poor whatever way you spin it.