First steps with m10 and Little dissapointed

[0luke1]

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I have a three week old M10, replaced my Sony a7riii (which is an excellent camera, but I started using Leica lenses on it and decided to stop fiddling with adapters and endless options/buttons/menus). My experience has been completely drama-free. Like the EVF and rangefinder (new to me, but easy to get used to). I’m taking more pictures because the technology isn’t getting in my way.

 

+1 on the Sandisk extreme pro cards. Zero problem.

[indergaard]

A digital Leica is like a British sportscar. It will be quirky, and you shouldn't rely on it like you can rely on a Land Cruiser.

 

I've owned several Leicas, both digital and analog, and ALL of them have had go back to Wetzlar (or Solms previously) for servicing within the warranty period, for multiple reasons:

 

1. M Monochrom v1: Calibration (3 times), sensor replacement, etc. It's normal that this camera locks up for no reason when firing off a couple of sequential shots, which requires the battery to be taken out for the camera to work again. I purchased this camera new.

 

2. M240: Calibration (also 3 times in total). The rear eye-piece of the viewfinder quickly got a lot of dust, which also required a trip to Wetzlar. I purchased this camera new.

 

3. Leica MP (analog): Calibration (4 times). Replacement of the entire rangefinder system because Leica could never get the calibration to stick, it always drifted within a couple of weeks after I got the camera back from service. Inner workings on the brass (smoothing) cause film got scratched very easily. Replacement of the back plate for the same reason. Adjustement of the shutter release because it would sometimes not trigger. Again, dust buildup in the rear eye-piece very quickly. I purchased this camera new.

 

4. Leica M10: Calibration is actually perfect. What??? And the camera has worked fine so far, with the exception that the rear eye-piece is full of dust after just 3000 clicks in normal and not very dusty conditions. This seems to be an issue with the M10. Mine was manufactured in September 2017 so it's not an early batch. The camera will need to go back to Wetzlar to clean this up at some point. Also, some times, the viewfinder frame lines don't activate as they should, which require me to take the lens off and re-attach it. Seems to be most problematic with my Summilux 50 ASPH. I have never had any issues with this lens on my MP or M240, so I assume this is an issue with the M10 as well. I purchased this camera used.

 

And that's just the servicing of cameras... I've had equally as many issues with Leica lenses which has required calibration (Lux 35 FLE, Noctilux 0.95 ASPH), and almost ALL of the lenses have had aperture rings that are FAR too loose, and also some of the lenses has had sticky focusing barrels...

 

I was furious in the beginning. How can something so expensive be so poorly built, with such poor quality assurance? But then I realised that this is very normal in Leica land. 

 

So my motto is: You buy a Leica body or lens while it's still in warranty, even if you buy used. That way you can do a proper inspection and test, and send it in for servicing free of charge. I refuse to buy any Leica equipment outside of warranty, used or new. And I'd always buy used from a store who gives warranty and refunds on used items. 

 

It's the same story with buying a Range Rover... It's very widely known that you DO NOT purchase these vehicles outside of warranty. it WILL cost a lot of money and frustrations because of garage visits...

 

By comparison, the Fuji's I've owned has also required servicing, mostly because of faulty sensors. But my Sony and Canon cameras and lenses have all worked flawlessly.

 

I've had so much correspondence with Leica CS, and regardless of what I contact them for these days, I always get a response by Olga Brunda. So it seems like I've been assigned a CS employee for whatever I contact them for :-) Leica CS has always been very nice, and they've always made a great effort in fixing the issues... But I wish the QA (Quality Assurance) team did a better job so that all this round-tripping wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

Edited May 26, 2018 by indergaard

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[Reciprocity]

The post above is, well, insane.

 

If I had to run my photography business just with Leica products along the lines of that experience I would not be able to concentrate and the work would suffer. Having gear working flawlessly and having the expectation of it continuing to do so helps let the whole process become subconscious.

 

My M10 showed up with the vertical RF off enough that I took the red dot off, adjusted it and replaced the dot with a black one. It also gained some eyepiece dust within the first few weeks. And finally the shutter release tactility was the roughest I had experienced in any Leica making slower shutter speeds hard to execute. A soft release, something I had never tried before, helped that greatly.

 

So I guess you can say my M10 is “perfect” by Leica standards.

[davidmknoble]

All interesting to read. I have had great luck with not only my M10, but other bodies as well. One item I don’t see here is the source of purchase. I purchase all of my gear through a Leica camera store (The Leica Store Miami in my case). That has helped me numerous times because the used gear I get has already been checked out and given a CLA if needed. Also, new gear that has a problem has been swapped out in a day or two.

 

I have also purchased some great lenses from other sources - via Ebay or dealers of other camera equipment. However, in almost every case, the first thing I have to do is send it to Leica for a CLA. Then it comes back with no problems. I have not ever received a lens from a Leica store used or new that has a wobbly f-stop ring. But, I have gotten some stiff focus and loose rings on used gear from other places.

 

So, I’m just suggesting that my quality rate is very near 100% with a Leica store...

 

Best of luck to the new M10 user - I love the slim body as I also shoot black and white film still and everything feels the same!

[indergaard]

The post above is, well, insane.

 

If I had to run my photography business just with Leica products along the lines of that experience I would not be able to concentrate and the work would suffer. Having gear working flawlessly and having the expectation of it continuing to do so helps let the whole process become subconscious.

 

My M10 showed up with the vertical RF off enough that I took the red dot off, adjusted it and replaced the dot with a black one. It also gained some eyepiece dust within the first few weeks. And finally the shutter release tactility was the roughest I had experienced in any Leica making slower shutter speeds hard to execute. A soft release, something I had never tried before, helped that greatly.

 

So I guess you can say my M10 is “perfect” by Leica standards.

 

 

Sometimes I think the universe is trying to send me a hint :-) (as in, don't use this camera brand). Because, just like you say, the issues with the camera and lenses (and subsequent inspection and testing, and always double-checking focus accuracy of the RF and so on) steals a lot of concentration away from what it is actually all about: making images, and being creative.

 

Regarding the shutter release on the M10; I agree. Mine is also very "stiff" and "clicky". It requires a serious "press" to fire, which makes the camera less usable with slow shutter speeds. I've never had problems with a 35mm lens at 1/30 before, on any other Leica body, but with the M10 I've actually noticed that I have quite a few exposures at 1/30 that have camera shake, which I think is directly linked to the hard-to-press shutter release on the M10.

 

Another thing to add to the list for the upcoming service (and 4-8 weeks waiting time) :-)

Edited May 28, 2018 by indergaard

[250swb]

 

How can something so expensive be so poorly built, with such poor quality assurance? But then I realised that this is very normal in Leica land. 

 

 

No it's not normal.

 

True, this thread has attracted fly's around it with 'problems'. But just because you are the most unlucky person alive regarding Leica products the statistics don't work on the basis that if you have a problem then everybody else must have a problem. You've taken two simple things the OP was having an issue with, the first the SD card, the second the lens not being recognised, and conflated them with your problems. The first is far more likely to be an issue with the SD card itself, so not a Leica problem, the second has every single characteristic of the user not mounting the lens properly, so a user problem. The third of the OP's 'problems' is a problem of perception, some new users think the aperture rings are too lose, some don't. But all long term Leica users are well aware that some lenses are designed with loser aperture rings than others, some older ones don't even have click stops. 

 

So I think imagining you are answering the OP's non-concerns with your list of woe is also a problem of perception. You feel butt hurt and perhaps hope everybody else is as well, but it isn't so, you are one big massive exception and the 'one in a million'. I'm not even going to doubt you've had all the problems you say you have, but sooner or later it's going to happen to somebody, and this time it really is all about you.

[indergaard]

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No it's not normal.

 

True, this thread has attracted fly's around it with 'problems'. But just because you are the most unlucky person alive regarding Leica products the statistics don't work on the basis that if you have a problem then everybody else must have a problem. You've taken two simple things the OP was having an issue with, the first the SD card, the second the lens not being recognised, and conflated them with your problems. The first is far more likely to be an issue with the SD card itself, so not a Leica problem, the second has every single characteristic of the user not mounting the lens properly, so a user problem. The third of the OP's 'problems' is a problem of perception, some new users think the aperture rings are too lose, some don't. But all long term Leica users are well aware that some lenses are designed with loser aperture rings than others, some older ones don't even have click stops. 

 

So I think imagining you are answering the OP's non-concerns with your list of woe is also a problem of perception. You feel butt hurt and perhaps hope everybody else is as well, but it isn't so, you are one big massive exception and the 'one in a million'. I'm not even going to doubt you've had all the problems you say you have, but sooner or later it's going to happen to somebody, and this time it really is all about you.

 

 

If anyone comes across as butt hurt here, it honestly seems like you.

 

As I said, I've realised this is more or less what I have to accept to use this system, and I seriously don't feel butt hurt at all. I did many years ago, but not any more. That doesn't mean I'm gonna praise Leica as being perfect. Not in any way. Cause it isn't. Not by a long shot.

 

Criticise the "unlucky one in a million" customer. Not corporate. Way to go!

[jaapv]

I think it is legitimate to point out that the series of problems you have had is equivalent to winning the Lotto. Especially the repeated calibrations are more than unusual. In most cases recalibrating a camera, be it by the user, an external service or Leica CS is a once-off. To have to return it one time  is a rarity, to return twice virtually unheard-of, let alone three or four times.

 

Not that Leicas need recalibrating that often in general. Having owned dozens of M cameras over more than forty years, I only needed to recalibrate three or four times, mostly due to the camera being dropped or similar causes. Modern M cameras are far more resistant to being knocked out of true by impact than older ones.

 

But yes, when the s**t starts flying somebody is bound to get hit. Never a nice experience to be the unlucky recipient.

It is the job of QA to keep the percentage as low as possible - not easy in a hand-made manufacturing process-.

[ianman]

 

It is the job of QA to keep the percentage as low as possible - not easy in a hand-made manufacturing process-.

The hand-made manufacturing process is an important point. Unless things have changed quite a lot in the past few years, all lens focus and aperture rings resistance are set by hand and by different technicians. When I visited the factory about 8/9 years ago, I saw people turning and turning and turning a focus ring on a new lens being manufactured, to get it just right. Technicians aren't machines and although I guess there is a pretty tight overall tolerance, what one technician may perceive as perfect, another may think of as too tight.

 

It also explains why servicing items takes a long time. They are still a very small company and as far as I can see, not a "throw away" company either, preferring to repair instead of outright and immediate exchange. Which is quite a refreshing and responsible way of doing things in this day and age.

[jaapv]

Not only that, but robots make systematic mistakes, whilst humans are random.

In an automated assembly line it suffices to pull off, say, one product in thousand and test it to destruction to find any manufacturing errors.

In a hand-made process you would have to put an inspector behind every technician, and an inspector to check on the inspectors, and even then, you cannot test each and every finished product to destruction.

[Tailwagger]

M10 perfect and remains so after nearly a year of operation > 10,000 frames. The only time I've experienced a hang was when mistakenly thought the camera was powered down and changed a lens with the camera in live view. 

 

Summilux BC perfect, no aperture slop what so ever. Both purchased from my local Leica store.  Certainly sucks to have problems, but having purchased through Leica, taking the goods out of the box and briefly testing them in the store has resulted in a trouble free experience.  

[indergaard]

Most of my equipment was either purchased from Leica Galerie Salzburg, Ken Hansen, or an authorized Leica dealership in Norway (we didn't get a official Leica store until recently). Ironically, the items I had most problems with came from Leica Galerie Salzburg. Noct 0.95 and M240.

 

As always, it is usually not possible to determine rangefinder inaccuracy while doing a store demo. Unless the store has proper testing equipment to do alignment testing, which I don't think they have or provide.

 

But the next time I'll bring my own tripod, 4-5 AA batteries and/or a ruler, and some measurements tools and start testing before I swipe my card. I would also need to do proper tests at infinity, which means going outside. I wonder if that would be acceptable, as the camera for sure would not be able to be sold as new again, and if it had issues, I would not purchase it :-)

Edited May 29, 2018 by indergaard

[JAC]

Guess I am lucky because my M10 and 35 Lux have never had even one single problem in my 8 months of ownership.  I hope everyone's problems get resolved quickly.

[250swb]

Technicians aren't machines and although I guess there is a pretty tight overall tolerance, what one technician may perceive as perfect, another may think of as too tight.

 

It would be interesting to know if rather than by the individual design of each lens, or the technician building it, whether the aperture rings of all lenses are now made loser because of Leica adding 'video' (shudder) to their cameras? I mean you don't want a click on the soundtrack every time you change aperture, or a shake as the resistance is overcome. 

 

I would still err on the side of it being the individual design of the lens whether it is loser or tighter. Every Leica lens is designed for the optimum optical performance, not necessarily for the same tactile feel. This is why some lenses are stiffer to focus than others, some pump more air, some need longer or shorter focus throws, some like tele lenses need some resistance because the brush of a fingertip would throw the focus off worse than a wide lens. In other words there are lots of possible reasons why things are why they are. 

 

Of course tolerances are also something an individual brings into the equation. The myth is still repeated after all these years that the body and lenses need to be calibrated together. You can see why there may be a misunderstanding as to why Leica ask for the lens and body to be returned if something is out of spec, but that is just because it's wiser not to trust customer diagnostics. It's still not going to help though if the customer is getting out of focus pictures simply because they can't centre their eye in the viewfinder. I tend to think that if customers didn't know about the possibility of 'calibration', and this forum hadn't spouted so many urban myths about it over the years, then many of the 'out of spec' discussions wouldn't have happened because the issue of out of focus pictures would revert to the user and how they operated the camera. 'The best camera in the world can always be beaten by the worst photographer in the world' may have been in everybody's thoughts, but I'm sure actual advice would have been more polite, that is until somebody on the forum discovered the word calibration and traditional advice of 'take a deep breath before exposing below 1/30th second' is consigned to the waste bin of wisdom.

[carneiro]

Hi, I had almost the same problems with my M240 a few years ago. In the end, it turned out to be a problem with a conductive path. Not repairable, the camera has been replaced. Everything's been great ever since. I think it is a production problem and would insist on the exchange. The service was terrible for me too, it took months. 

[budjames]

No camera company can survive with double digit return rate.

I have been following this forum for 8 years and from that anecdotal experience I can tell that M10 is the most trouble free digital M.

 

Knock on wood, but my two M10s are working just fine.

 

Regards,

Bud James

 

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[mujk]

When compared to almost any other camera manufactured today, an M has much more precision mechanics that can go out of calibration, particularly in the rangefinder mechanism. Back in the days when all cameras where mostly mechanical, it was quite normal to have e.g. the shutter speeds of an SLR adjusted every now and then.

 

So I think we should treat calibration-related problems in an M10 a bit differently than e.g. total mechanical or electronics failures and also software bugs. The latter ones could be a sign of bad engineering and/or QC, while all calibration-related ones cannot necessarily be totally avoided.

 

I have now had my M10 for more than five months and have not experienced any problems. At least it seems that the software (or electronics+software combination) is more stable than that of my M9, which actually is not that bad when you learn how to avoid some of the more common issues. Which, of course, should't be needed in an expensive, high quality product.

[mjh]

It would be interesting to know if rather than by the individual design of each lens, or the technician building it, whether the aperture rings of all lenses are now made loser because of Leica adding 'video' (shudder) to their cameras?

Why would Leica offer cine lenses specifically geared for video use when their standard lenses were already optimised with video in mind?

 

Or to put it more succinctly: No, that’s definitely not the case.

[Guest jvansmit]

I think it is legitimate to point out that the series of problems you have had is equivalent to winning the Lotto.

 

 

 

after buying 9 digital Leicas, and a dozen or so lenses, I seem to 'win lotto' about 50% of the time

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[pgh]

I think it is legitimate to point out that the series of problems you have had is equivalent to winning the Lotto. 

While a faulty camera may not be the norm, this is total hyperbole. Leica doesn't manufacture near enough cameras to even talk about lottery odds.

 

I don't know the rates, but my guess is that they crank out multiple faulty bodies per 100 manufactured. I would love to know their QC goals. Per 1000 seems too generous given that I personally know people (not the on the forums) who have had multiple issues, and that I personally have had extensive issues with both my M8 and M10. I've won the lottery two out of two possible times - this isn't my "luck" normally and hasn't been with any other manufacturer. This is all speculation and anecdotal on my part of course, but Leica simply don't manufacture enough units for all of these stories to be statistically insignificant.