SL - focusing on moving subject

[hmarkweidman]

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I am curious to learn if anyone else is having problems with the Leica SL when shooting moving subjects.  When shooting a moving subject, like a dog coming towards the camera, the Focus Point (green rectangle in viewfinder) jumps around and does not stick to the subject - it is almost like the Focus Mode is set to “Face Detection” (which it is not).  If I continue to hold the shutter release half way down, & slightly recompose the image, the Focus Point tries to stay on the spot that it originally focused upon.  Is there a way to set up the Auto Focus so that the Focus Frame/Point stays on the selected moving subject, rather than it jumping around the frame sporadically?

 

Here are the camera settings I started with, though I have experimented with changing all of them.  The problem is not quite as bad using the Single Focus Mode rather than the Continuous Mode.

 

Focus Mode: Auto Focus Continuous (or Single Focus)

Drive Mode: Continuous Medium

Auto Focus Field Size: “Field” (or single point or zone)

Auto Focus Mode: Dynamic (Tracking)

 

Thanks,  Mark Weidman

[sillbeers15]

The selection of AF size should depends on the background you are shooting against. If it were plain and no distraction, you can select 'field' or 'zone' to increase your scope of focusing (but increasing can also reduce the accuracy of focus). If the background is complicated, you're better off selscting 'point' focus.

Avoid shooting your moving subject against strong back light as the Contrast Detect AF mechanism is at it's weakest. The stronger the lighting on your subject improves the AF accuracy. Select your shutter speed to sufficient to avoid motion blur even though you have stabalizon on.

Another note is if you're set on AFC than AFS, at times just jam your shutter release button can yield some suprising focus sharp results even your EVF does not necessary show that the subject is fully focused (the AF will continue to focus while you continue to shoot on continuous drive mode). If you're using the 90-280mm zoom which the focus zone is fairly large, it makes sense to prefocus at a certain point in similar range of distance you wish to start shooting your moving subject. I found it increases the chances of getting the moving subject visible in the EVF good enough for me to start fixing the green box on my moving subject and start shooting.

Hope that helps,...happy shooting.

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[hmarkweidman]

Thanks for the response & suggestions.  I am mainly using the 90-280mm lens for moving/action shots and have experimented with a bunch of the settings, but, so far I am generally getting unsatisfactory results.  My frame-of-reference is a Canon iDX Mark II, which has incredible focus tracking and so far is immensely superior to the Leica SL.  I will continue to experiment and if I find a group of settings that seems to work best I will post that here.   Mark W.

[LD_50]

You are never going to get top of the line Canon/Nikon or even Olympus/Fuji autofocus peformance from the SL or any CDAF camera.

 

There are a lot of threads and comments on this on the site. The system just can’t focus as fast as PDAF or PDAF/CDAF hybrid systems because it always has to look for contrast changes by moving the lens back and forth instead of using distance information to drive to a specific position.

[hmarkweidman]

Thanks for your comment, you have confirmed what I had already started to figure out.  If there was a way to Lock the focus point in the viewfinder I think that would be extremely helpful, at least for the way in which I shoot.  I will search the forum for additional comments per your advice.

[sillbeers15]

Thanks for the response & suggestions. I am mainly using the 90-280mm lens for moving/action shots and have experimented with a bunch of the settings, but, so far I am generally getting unsatisfactory results. My frame-of-reference is a Canon iDX Mark II, which has incredible focus tracking and so far is immensely superior to the Leica SL. I will continue to experiment and if I find a group of settings that seems to work best I will post that here. Mark W.

Continue to stay on your old ways of handling Canon DSLR on fast moving subjects against SL and especially with 90-280mm lens will only bring you frustration. I’ve seen many complains. Relearning to handle and optimize the SL’s AF for your need would be the rational way unless you plan to fail.

[LD_50]

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Continue to stay on your old ways of handling Canon DSLR on fast moving subjects against SL and especially with 90-280mm lens will only bring you frustration. I’ve seen many complains. Relearning to handle and optimize the SL’s AF for your need would be the rational way unless you plan to fail.

The AF system on the SL is not as capable as the Canon referenced (I have not shot the 1DX ii, though it’s compared favorably to the top Nikons I do have experience with).

 

It’s not just about relearning the SL system. It helps to know the limits and abilities of any AF system, including the top level Canon or Nikon systems. The keeper rate improves with experience.

 

That said, you’ll learn the SL system isn’t as good as those systems and can’t achieve the same results as reliably. It’s a limitation in the design of the system. You can still end up with good shots, as many post here.

[adan]

Basic fact of life, for the time being. Contrast-Detect focusing using the imaging sensor just will not work as fast, nor "track" motion nearly as well, as Phase-Detect focusing using a separate dedicated optical system and AF sensor (i.e. as in "classic" mirror-groundglass-prism SLRs.) Reason being that CD cannot tell which way the lens is out of focus except by trial-and-error, while PD, like a Leica manual rangefinder or an SLR split-prism screen, always knows which direction to move as well as how far out the focus is.

 

https://photographylife.com/how-phase-detection-autofocus-works

 

https://www.creative-photographer.com/phase-detection-contrast-detection-autofocus/

 

Canon has started putting phase-detect pixels into their image sensors (first with the 7D MkII, for faster AF in videos), as has Fuji - but that technology is proprietary and not yet widely available for other makers like Leica. One reason I've never been tempted by "mirrorless" pseudo-SLR systems, since I never use TTL viewing except for sports/action with long lenses - just not adequate for that particular type of pro use. Although that will change - eventually. Along about the time of the SL3, Leica may finally have a sensor supplier who can include phase-detect focusing with EVF viewing.

Edited May 23, 2018 by adan

[sillbeers15]

Basic fact of life, for the time being. Contrast-Detect focusing using the imaging sensor just will not work as fast, nor "track" motion nearly as well, as Phase-Detect focusing using a separate dedicated optical system and AF sensor (i.e. as in "classic" mirror-groundglass-prism SLRs.) Reason being that CD cannot tell which way the lens is out of focus except by trial-and-error, while PD, like a Leica manual rangefinder or an SLR split-prism screen, always knows which direction to move as well as how far out the focus is.

 

https://photographylife.com/how-phase-detection-autofocus-works

 

https://www.creative-photographer.com/phase-detection-contrast-detection-autofocus/

 

Canon has started putting phase-detect pixels into their image sensors (first with the 7D MkII, for faster AF in videos), as has Fuji - but that technology is proprietary and not yet widely available for other makers like Leica. One reason I've never been tempted by "mirrorless" pseudo-SLR systems, since I never use TTL viewing except for sports/action with long lenses - just not adequate for that particular type of pro use. Although that will change - eventually. Along about the time of the SL3, Leica may finally have a sensor supplier who can include phase-detect focusing with EVF viewing.

Well and good. So you should be using phase detect AF cameras. As for Leica who’s development partner is Panasonic. The AF system in SL is almost identical to GH4. So if you want to predict what will SL2 have just look at the AF specs of G9. I’m not saying Leica will not employ Phase Detect AF in future models of Mirrorless but the chances are slim. Simply Leica does not have the volume to develop everything from scratch in development. It is correct that Leica stick to what it does best, optics. Today manufacturers collaborate to reduce development budget & time. So the relevance of phase detection AF in Leica is irrelevant at this point in time. As the topic of the tread is on AF setting to best capture moving subjects and not how well and good phase detect is. I do not care. It is irrelevant to Leica SL’s AF as far as I’m concern. My concern and sharing is how SL users can best utilize the AF capability especially on the 90-280mm lens cause not having the right technique can cause lots of frustration and novice users just end up blaming the lens and AF capability.

[helged]

For (unpredictable, quick) action/wildlife photography, I use Nikon D500/D5 with excellent results. For all other types of photography, I use Leica bodies/lenses, mainly SL.

The SL+90-280 combo is optically very fine. For demanding AF situations, I would possibly stop down the lens a litte (f5.6/6.3 or thereabout) and go for manual focus. For short shutter speed this may require high-ish ISOs. But I try to avoid ISOs above 1600 on the SL.

The above scenario - the lack of quick, reliable AF and reduced image quality at high ISO - illustrate that the SL is not the technically best option for (unpredictable) action/wildlife photography. In addition, the longest native lens available is 280mm, which is on the short end for many applications. That being said, for slow/static subjects and/or predictable movements, the SL is a fine machine indeed.

As stated above by e.g. Adan, AF and high ISO will improve with newer incarnations of the SL, possibly in SL2 in 2019 (?). Whether/when we will see longer lenses remains to be seen. Time will tell. In the mean time, I will continue to use two systems, one for action (Nikon) and Leica for the rest.

Edited May 23, 2018 by helged

[hmarkweidman]

Thank you again to all have contributed to this post, I appreciate it.  To clarify, I am not blaming the SL or Leica lenses for inadequacies.  In fact, the reason I posted originally was because I thought I might have been doing something wrong in technique, which was causing the focus problems, and I hoped to learn from other’s experiences.  The SL is my first mirrorless camera. I have shot several thousand frames with the SL and the quality of the DNG files, largely due to the optics and sensor, are fantastic.  Before buying the camera and lenses I read all the reviews I could find, and for some odd reason never stumbled upon the issue of focusing on quickly moving subjects. I also did not read in a single review any comments on the dynamic range of the DNG files; and I find they surpass the RAW files from my Canon 1DX-Mk II and Canon EOS-5D Mk IV. I will continue to experiment with the 70-280mm lens and moving subjects, including trying the settings the folks on this forum have suggested.  Mark W. 

[Chaemono]

Leica could be the thinking about PD AF for the SL3 but I suspect they are thinking more about Panasonic‘s CD DFD AF technology. As processor speed improves and given that they have precise calculations of the DOF of their lenses they are predestined to go this way, if they are willing to pay Panasonic enough royalties on SL sales, I guess.

 

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/panasonic-gh4/panasonic-gh4TECH.HTM

 

“With all that as background we can now talk about Panasonic's latest AF innovation, Depth From Defocus, or DFD technology. Panasonic's engineers realized that they had more information to work with than just whether incremental changes in focus resulted in better or worse contrast measurements; they could also tell how much the contrast signal improved or worsened. By knowing how much the focus improved or worsened after a small focus change, they had an opportunity to tell how far out of focus the lens was. They had the opportunity to tell that, but actually knowing how far the lens needed to travel required that the camera know a great deal about the lens. Basically, the camera has to have a detailed understanding of the lens' bokeh, across the full range of out of focus conditions, at all focal lengths (in the case of a zoom lens), and all apertures.”

[thighslapper]

..... and wasn't the 'two lens' AF in the 90-280 and 75/90 primes derived from Panasonic anyway ..... ? 

 

I would have thought adding in further Panasonic technology would be a no-brainer ...... considering the final cost of Leica lenses I would have thought any licensing costs would be a small fraction of the total .....

[sillbeers15]

..... and wasn't the 'two lens' AF in the 90-280 and 75/90 primes derived from Panasonic anyway ..... ?

 

I would have thought adding in further Panasonic technology would be a no-brainer ...... considering the final cost of Leica lenses I would have thought any licensing costs would be a small fraction of the total .....

The AF sensor and circuitry is held within the camera body and not lens. The AF lens is passive, micro motor receives info from camera and moves the lenses linearly accordingly.

The current Panasonic G9 has the latest DFD technology comparing to the SL & GH4. It is likely Leica SL2 will adopt G9’s DFD technology unless Leica changes technology partner. The S007 has a phase detect AF sensor. But there is very little info about it cause most MF are used in static or slow movements shots. I suspect the other element on AF capability could be prosessor speed and power. Would the 4.4 mil pixel EVF robbed to much processing power?

[lx1713]

I am curious to learn if anyone else is having problems with the Leica SL when shooting moving subjects.  When shooting a moving subject, like a dog coming towards the camera, the Focus Point (green rectangle in viewfinder) jumps around and does not stick to the subject - it is almost like the Focus Mode is set to “Face Detection” (which it is not).  If I continue to hold the shutter release half way down, & slightly recompose the image, the Focus Point tries to stay on the spot that it originally focused upon.  Is there a way to set up the Auto Focus so that the Focus Frame/Point stays on the selected moving subject, rather than it jumping around the frame sporadically?

 

Here are the camera settings I started with, though I have experimented with changing all of them.  The problem is not quite as bad using the Single Focus Mode rather than the Continuous Mode.

 

Focus Mode: Auto Focus Continuous (or Single Focus)

Drive Mode: Continuous Medium

Auto Focus Field Size: “Field” (or single point or zone)

Auto Focus Mode: Dynamic (Tracking)

 

Thanks,  Mark Weidman

 

 

Try this. I just discovered it accidentally today when my client's VIP said my SL shutter was too loud

I had very good to excellent results at ISO 3200 90mm end of 24-90 at  f4 1/200 second  mixed daylight and fluorescent lighting. May not be quite 1DXII nor 5DIV consistency but I'm happy with it. Setting white balance may possibly improve the rate but I doubt it. I don't think it will pass the dog test.

 

Set electronic shutter: Always On

Focus Mode: Auto Focus Continuous

Drive Mode: Continuous Medium

Auto Focus Field Size: “Field”

Auto Focus Mode: Static

[lx1713]

I think the mechanical shutter interrupts the AF calculations that PDAF don't experience. So an electronic shutter has continuous access to the flow of AF data. Just a guess. I have to say I was shocked by the difference but I need to test it more. I don't have the 90-280 to play with, so someone else will want to fill the gap of knowledge.

Edited May 24, 2018 by lx1713

[thighslapper]

The AF sensor and circuitry is held within the camera body and not lens. The AF lens is passive, micro motor receives info from camera and moves the lenses linearly accordingly.

 

 .... I realise that ...... I was just pointing out that the SL has some Panasonic wizardry already under the bonnet, so adding a bit more would make sense ....

[hmarkweidman]

Try this. I just discovered it accidentally today when my client's VIP said my SL shutter was too loud

I had very good to excellent results at ISO 3200 90mm end of 24-90 at  f4 1/200 second  mixed daylight and fluorescent lighting. May not be quite 1DXII nor 5DIV consistency but I'm happy with it. Setting white balance may possibly improve the rate but I doubt it. I don't think it will pass the dog test.

 

Set electronic shutter: Always On

Focus Mode: Auto Focus Continuous

Drive Mode: Continuous Medium

Auto Focus Field Size: “Field”

Auto Focus Mode: Static

 

 

In my ongoing series of tests with the SL and moving subjects, today I tested the following settings suggested by Erfahrener Benutzer:

 

• Set electronic shutter: Always On

• Focus Mode: Auto Focus Continuous

• Drive Mode: Continuous Medium

• Auto Focus Field Size: “Field”

• Auto Focus Mode: Static

 

Much to my surprise the results were relatively good (as measured by sharp primary subjects), possibly better than any other specific set of settings I have tried when shooting action.  I had read that using an electronic shutter for moving subjects was generally not recommended, due to possible banding or line effects. Well, I did not experience any of those problems in the 400± frame test.  I will continue to experiment and post any new findings here.  Mark W.

[hmarkweidman]

I forgot to mention in my previous post that the thing I liked most about the results of using these settings is that the focus frame did not jump around the viewfinder searching for a high contrast subject on which to focus.  This simple difference from all the other settings I have tried allowed me to manually keep the focus frame on my moving subject, resulting in a higher success (sharpness) rate.   Mark W.

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[Jeff S]

In my ongoing series of tests with the SL and moving subjects, today I tested the following settings suggested by Erfahrener Benutzer:

 

FYI, Erfahrener Benutzer is the term applied to any forum member who has a certain minimum number of posts....meaning roughly “experienced user” in German. I made that same mistake as a forum newbie (benutzer)!

 

Jeff

Edited May 24, 2018 by Jeff S