Jump to content

Kugellager IIIc question


Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

New member question

 

I have a Leica Kugellager IIIc camera my father bought in the early 50's. I was told it has the wrong base plate. The plate looks to be stainless and the top of the camera is a gray/black. The plate has not been replaced since he bought it. Is it true that the plate should match the top? Its seems hard to believe that someone had replaced it in the early 50's or 40's when the camera was fairly new.

Thanks in Advance

Link to post
Share on other sites

Those I've seen pictured have matching base plates, but especially for a camera made and used in wartime, all sorts of things are possible. The original may have been lost or damaged and simply replaced with the most readily available version, which would have been chrome once Leitz had the supplies to begin plating again. Maybe it even started out as one of those rare cameras that had a MOOLY winder painted to match, which was then replaced with a conventional base plate at some point.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes, people messed around with base plates and the simplest thing to do was just to replace the base plate with one that was to hand. Below are my two grey IIIcs, one a K and other not. The one that is not a K, which I got for a very good price, has some type of flash synchronisation device on the base plate which now prevents wind on. I just replace it with a base plate that works if I want to use the camera. I suspect that spare grey base plates are difficult to get and I have never gone looking for one.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

William

Edited by willeica
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are pics of camera with baseplate. The reason I think the baseplate is stainless - look at the chrome on the lock knob as compared to rest.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Those I've seen pictured have matching base plates, but especially for a camera made and used in wartime, all sorts of things are possible. The original may have been lost or damaged and simply replaced with the most readily available version, which would have been chrome once Leitz had the supplies to begin plating again. Maybe it even started out as one of those rare cameras that had a MOOLY winder painted to match, which was then replaced with a conventional base plate at some point.

 

The black M4-P that I just bought with an M4-2 Winder on it. was supplied with a chrome base plate. I suspect the same has happened with the OP's camera, at some point in its life, its correct base has been put in a drawer and forgotten. Also given that this a wartime camera, in the fog of war, it may just have been plain lost. At some point when I send the M4-P for a CLA, I may get Alan Starkie to strip the chrome off the base plate and paint it black.Alternatively I can just share the M7 black base plate I have, between the M4-P and M7, since most of the time, they have a Winder/Motor-M on them. 

 

I know William and I have opposing views on restoration/non-restoration but I would get that ugly dent in the top cover mended. At the same time the base, (which I suspect is chrome not stainless) striped and painted a matching colour to the camera. 

 

I often wondered if the K cameras were noisier than the regular bearing models. I used to have an Eternamatic watch which used tiny ball races in place of jewel bearings. If you put it up to your ear, you could hear the bearings rumbling. Sadly my daughter at the age of three, took it out into our garden and we assume buried it, as we spent hours looking for it both visually and with a borrowed metal detector but never found it. 

 

Wilson

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The black M4-P that I just bought with an M4-2 Winder on it. was supplied with a chrome base plate. I suspect the same has happened with the OP's camera, at some point in its life, its correct base has been put in a drawer and forgotten. Also given that this a wartime camera, in the fog of war, it may just have been plain lost. At some point when I send the M4-P for a CLA, I may get Alan Starkie to strip the chrome off the base plate and paint it black.Alternatively I can just share the M7 black base plate I have, between the M4-P and M7, since most of the time, they have a Winder/Motor-M on them. 

 

I know William and I have opposing views on restoration/non-restoration but I would get that ugly dent in the top cover mended. At the same time the base, (which I suspect is chrome not stainless) striped and painted a matching colour to the camera. 

 

I often wondered if the K cameras were noisier than the regular bearing models. I used to have an Eternamatic watch which used tiny ball races in place of jewel bearings. If you put it up to your ear, you could hear the bearings rumbling. Sadly my daughter at the age of three, took it out into our garden and we assume buried it, as we spent hours looking for it both visually and with a borrowed metal detector but never found it. 

 

Wilson

It all depends on what you want to with a camera. I am happy to leave a camera in its original cosmetic condition, but if I want to use a camera and a repair is necessary to enable that, I will have the repair done. That dent on the top plate might cause issues with a rangefinder, but it might be possible for a technician to work around this without repairing the dent.

 

I have sound tested the two grey IIIcs above. The K model is slightly louder, but it feels smoother than the non K model if that makes sense.

 

William

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have IIIcK # 390 732 in my collection

William, what is the number of yours

I will have to look in Lager's Military Leicas listing

I knew a photographer here in Chicago who was a family friend of my dad and uncles who was in Signal Corps in the ETO (European Theater of Operations) during the war. He was issued a IIIcK sometime in the summer of 1944. He was still in theater when the war ended. He told me that one of his assignments after VE Day was to take ID photos of the officers in preparation for the invasion of Japan. Luckily that never happened!

On his separation from service, he turned the K camera in as he was a very honest guy. He showed me the property invoice he was issued and was always looking to find "his camera", which he never did. He became a professional photographer and was a life long Leica man. I still have a picture of him somewhere in uniform with his K camera and a copy of the receipt for it when he turned it in.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have IIIcK # 390 732 in my collection

William, what is the number of yours

I will have to look in Lager's Military Leicas listing

I knew a photographer here in Chicago who was a family friend of my dad and uncles who was in Signal Corps in the ETO (European Theater of Operations) during the war. He was issued a IIIcK sometime in the summer of 1944. He was still in theater when the war ended. He told me that one of his assignments after VE Day was to take ID photos of the officers in preparation for the invasion of Japan. Luckily that never happened!

On his separation from service, he turned the K camera in as he was a very honest guy. He showed me the property invoice he was issued and was always looking to find "his camera", which he never did. He became a professional photographer and was a life long Leica man. I still have a picture of him somewhere in uniform with his K camera and a copy of the receipt for it when he turned it in.

 

Thanks Bill. That is a very interesting story.

 

My grey IIIcK has SN 389342K It is not listed in Dr Luigi Cane's book (Screwmount cameras with military engravings produced by the German Leica Society- Lars Netopil) and the nearest military one is some distance away SN-wise.

 

My grey IIIc has SN 388643 and, while it is not in Cane's book, the immediately previous 17 cameras (from SN 388626 to SN 388642) are listed and it seems that they were issued to the Luftwaffe on 1.12.42. This camera came with a Technica Camera Limited synch baseplate and it is necessary to swop this plate for a normal base plate to get it to work these days. I got the camera at auction for a very much reduced price for a grey IIIc.

 

I also have a red shutter chrome IIIc with SN 371915 . In May 2013 a similar camera engraved 'Heer' with SN 371922 (7 away from mine) was sold for a considerable sum at Westlicht in May 2013. SN 371922 is not listed in Cane's book and I asked Lars Netopil about this. His succinct answer was that if an item was listed in Cane it was definitely a military camera, but that other cameras with proven provenance could have been used by military during WWII. I might add that Westlicht seem to have traced delivery documents for SN 371922 and the matching Summitar lens, both of which were marked 'Heer' and were delivered together in Berlin on 19th March 1941.

 

I suspect that a lot of cameras produced during the period of WWII have a story to tell, if the details could be found.

 

William

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have IIIcK # 390 732 in my collection

William, what is the number of yours

I will have to look in Lager's Military Leicas listing

I knew a photographer here in Chicago who was a family friend of my dad and uncles who was in Signal Corps in the ETO (European Theater of Operations) during the war. He was issued a IIIcK sometime in the summer of 1944. He was still in theater when the war ended. He told me that one of his assignments after VE Day was to take ID photos of the officers in preparation for the invasion of Japan. Luckily that never happened!

On his separation from service, he turned the K camera in as he was a very honest guy. He showed me the property invoice he was issued and was always looking to find "his camera", which he never did. He became a professional photographer and was a life long Leica man. I still have a picture of him somewhere in uniform with his K camera and a copy of the receipt for it when he turned it in.

 

The sad thing is that in comparison to the military personnel, who pocketed many and various items, he probably received no credit or thanks for being honest. 

 

Wilson

Link to post
Share on other sites

The sad thing is that in comparison to the military personnel, who pocketed many and various items, he probably received no credit or thanks for being honest. 

 

Wilson

Wilson you are absolutely right. Back then, that's the way people were brought up. While some were grabbing whatever they could, most did what was expected.

Marty Schmidt was his name, and he was the photographer in the old neighborhood in Chicago my family came from. He was a mentor to my dad in photography, and in an indirect way influenced me with my love of Leica. My dad was sent over as part of the occupation after his high school graduation in June of 1945. He used a 4x5 Graphic for this work. He was a photographer documenting the "demilitarization" of war materials so they wouldn't fall into the hands of the Russians if they invaded Western Europe. While there he got his first Leica, which was quite a story in itself, and met Dr. Paul Wolff, the pioneer of the Leica.

I became friends with Marty years later when I was a Leica dealer, and we remained good friends until his passing. We attended several LHSA meetings together. He always wanted to be reunited with his Leica from his time in service but that never happened. He was a life long Leica shooter, and even got a cover on the old Leica Fotografie. He was also a collector, and I brokered the sale of his Hammertone MD. That camera inspired me to come up with the LHSA Hammertone MP.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wilson you are absolutely right. Back then, that's the way people were brought up. While some were grabbing whatever they could, most did what was expected.

Marty Schmidt was his name, and he was the photographer in the old neighborhood in Chicago my family came from. He was a mentor to my dad in photography, and in an indirect way influenced me with my love of Leica. My dad was sent over as part of the occupation after his high school graduation in June of 1945. He used a 4x5 Graphic for this work. He was a photographer documenting the "demilitarization" of war materials so they wouldn't fall into the hands of the Russians if they invaded Western Europe. While there he got his first Leica, which was quite a story in itself, and met Dr. Paul Wolff, the pioneer of the Leica.

I became friends with Marty years later when I was a Leica dealer, and we remained good friends until his passing. We attended several LHSA meetings together. He always wanted to be reunited with his Leica from his time in service but that never happened. He was a life long Leica shooter, and even got a cover on the old Leica Fotografie. He was also a collector, and I brokered the sale of his Hammertone MD. That camera inspired me to come up with the LHSA Hammertone MP.

 

Thanks Bill. If the IIIcK used by Marty was a captured camera, which seems likely,  it is possible that its serial number is in lists of military cameras produced by Cane, Lager and others. Also Lars Netopil, who you know well, might also be able to help.

 

William

Edited by willeica
Link to post
Share on other sites

The sad thing is, that most likely the IIIcK would have sat around in some remote warehouse for years and then in a cost cutting exercise to reduce rental outlay, would have been scrapped, with the rest of the warehouse contents.

 

I know that both Jaguar and Rolls Royce, made a decision when they were computerising their spares inventory in the late 1960's and early 1970's, to scrap most of their older spare parts, to avoid having to sort, catalogue and list them. So that they had nil value when scrapped, they were used as part of the foundations for new buildings and car parks. The companies could then write off the total stock-in-trade value of all their old spares against tax. I know someone who restores Merlin and Griffon engines, mainly for aviation use. They have run out of ones which were lying in warehouses and in aircraft scrapyards all round the world and are now digging up crashed planes to get at the engines for their parts. Some of the engines he has sitting around in his storage hanger, show bullet and canon shell holes in them. He would love to dig up the car park at Rolls Royce Aerospace in Derby, as he thinks there are dozens of Merlin, Griffon and earlier engines underneath the tarmac. 

 

Wilson

Link to post
Share on other sites

I heard back from Jim Lager on my camera. His notes from the delivery records indicate it was delivered to the Occupation Forces on 7.7.45

The handwritten notation was Amerik.Armee shipment 8152, originally equipped with a 5cm 3.5 Elmar

Link to post
Share on other sites

I heard back from Jim Lager on my camera. His notes from the delivery records indicate it was delivered to the Occupation Forces on 7.7.45

The handwritten notation was Amerik.Armee shipment 8152, originally equipped with a 5cm 3.5 Elmar

 

Thanks Bill. 7.7.45 was very soon after VE Day, which was on 8th May 1945. We must assume that Marty's camera which was issued in 1944 was a captured item, in which case it may be on some of the lists of German military cameras.

 

Collectiblend lists 14 different categories of IIIcK cameras and each of these listings contains multiple lists auction listings for the various types of IIIcK, which can be used for further research. Some examples are below.

 

http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIIc-K-grey.html

 

http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIIc-K-Heer-Wehrmacht-grey.html

 

http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIIc-K-Luftwaffen-Eigentum-grey.html

 

There many other variants other than those linked above, including US Army issue items.

 

http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIIc-K-grey-US-Army.html

 

If you want to trace Marty's camera, these lists would be a good place to start. As I mentioned already, Lars Netopil has very good knowledge of such cameras having worked with Dr Cane on his book and also having been involved in the vintage Leica business for many years.

 

William

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...