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Oldest Leitz (Leica) filter styles for Elmar 5cm?


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#1 ironringer

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 05:44

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Could the veteran collectors please walk us through (with pictures) the earliest prewar filter styles and date ranges, for the Elmar 5cm lens?

I know of the small (19mm?) screw-in style, the slip-on style (with slotted tabs to simply pinch it on the lens rim), and the common clamp-on style with the screw-clamp to tighten a tab.

 

Question 1: I assume that all the earliest Elmars had a screw-in thread (for the small 19mm filters) in front of the front lens element, but maybe that is not so?

 

Question 2: are all these early Leitz filters marked Leitz or Leica?

Or are some unmarked, but likely original Leitz/Leica?

 

Question 3: are there other prewar filter styles?

I believe I have seen (on the internet auction site) two types of "slip-on" style: one with a full-diameter (about 33mm?) filter glass, and one with a smaller (about 22mm?) diameter filter glass in the middle, to cover the lens element. The full-diameter slip-on filters are marked Leitz, and the smaller diameter type does not appear to be marked (perhaps NOT a Leitz product).

 

Question 4: are the earliest filters identified in late 1920s and early 1930s catalogues or literature, with illustrations and product numbers?

 

We appreciate your information that will inform those of us who would like to find and use correct-period, original Leitz filters, with our oldest Elmars.

 

And a follow-up Question 5: are filters for the earliest Hector 5cm lenses any different (style, type, size) from those for the Elmar?



#2 luigi bertolotti

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 11:48

Laney is your friend … :)

 

First filters were not with screw Mount, but pressure-fit :

A (1925) Elmar 5cm and 3,5cm : Yellow, in 4 different densities (FUNS FILBY FILGE FILTU);  to be special-ordered for cameras under # 9.500 (maybe, tolerancing on such cameras were not up to the standardization required by pressure-fit)

B (1931) Hektor 5cm Elmar 13,5 cm

C (1933) Hektor 7,3 cm

D (1935) Thambar 9 cm Telyt 20 cm

E (1938) Xenon

 

The first screw Mount filters entered in 1930:

F for Compur Leicas , Yellow in 3 densities FICAT FICOM FICUR

G for Elmar 5/3,5 : one of them, the medium Yellow FIRHE was one of the longest-lived… still catalgued in 1965, even had the new coding system (13001)

 

and so on… ;) …. Laney has a very complete listing of (I think) all the old filters… he speaks of a total of 265 items in 24 variations of Mount… and, moreover, Leitz New York made and listed its OWN filters…

The marking, afaik, when present on the mount (isn't always like this) , has been always LEITZ, not LEICA, in the past.


Edited by luigi bertolotti, 12 May 2018 - 11:52.

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#3 willeica

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 12:28

As Luigi says, pages 393 , 394 and 395 of Laney ( essential for any collector) are your friend. Page 394 contains are a very full table of filters from 1925 onwards. His use of  'Slip On' for the A (23mm) filters is arguable as they actually screw in at the front of the lens. Up to SN 9500 the front filter thread on the 50mm Elmar was fine, thereafter it was coarse. Early A filters had a fine thread and and later ones, marked with an asterisk, had a more coarse thread. There were slip on filters from 1930 onwards. 

 

The picture below shows both the A and B filters, The A is a screw in yellow filter No 1 (FILBY) with an asterisk to indicate it is for models later than SN 9500. It is marked E.Leitz Wetzlar. The B filter is a slip on UV filter called a FIOLA. The box for the FIOLA is shown. Both of these will work with the hoods shown here.

 

Attached File  I Model A and II Model D with filters (1 of 1).jpg   72.59KB   0 downloads

 

The issues with coarse and fine thread and asterisks also arise with the screw in close up lenses for the Elmar, which are called ELPRO, ELPIK and ELPET.

 

One little adjunct to the early Leica filters are these VERAX filters which were independently produced during the 1920s and 1930s

 

Attached File  I Model A with VERAX filter (1 of 1).jpg   76.26KB   0 downloads

 

William


Edited by willeica, 12 May 2018 - 12:30.

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#4 wlaidlaw

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 11:20

My father had a push on lens hood for his Summar with a slot in it to insert filters. From memory, he only had yellow and orange slide in filters and I think the hood was made by Wallace Heaton, the main UK Leica importers but the filter glasses themselves were made by Kodak-Wratten. 

 

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#5 alan mcfall

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 17:19

I expect many optical companies made an effort to provide filters and other accessories for Leitz lenses.  I don't think the screw-on or slip-on concept was patentable, but other ideas for attachment were available.  Here is a "sissor" style clip, certainly not useable with a hood.

Attached File  IMG_0552.JPG   119.98KB   1 downloads

Attached File  IMG_0553.JPG   91.25KB   0 downloads

 

The engraving is:  LeicoHalter   Leisegang & Co.  Reichenberger str. 15

 

Why Leico rather than Leica?    Legal concerns?

If Reichbeger str.15 is the street location, what is the city?    

Google shows Leisegang companies in Frankfurt, but they are patent and medical businesses now.

 

Maybe someone can advise the history.  This filter is too big for the Elmar, but a perfect fit for the 73 Hektor as I have shown.



#6 willeica

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 17:55

My father had a push on lens hood for his Summar with a slot in it to insert filters. From memory, he only had yellow and orange slide in filters and I think the hood was made by Wallace Heaton, the main UK Leica importers but the filter glasses themselves were made by Kodak-Wratten. 

 

Wilson

 

The Summar took type H screw in filters which would have fitted under the large SOOMP hood. The problem was that if you wanted to change the filters you would have had to remove the hood. The Wallace Heaton hood sounds like a solution to that issue. It would be nice to see what that hood looked like. It is probably shown in the Wallace Heaton catalogue or "Blue Book', copies of which are sometimes to be seen on eBay.

 

This Leisegang company appears to have a long history in photographical retail and optical products covering the period in question. 

 

https://www.leisegan...130.0.html?&L=1

 

I suspect that the use of the word 'Leico' rather than 'Leica' was to avoid confusion or copyright issues

 

The VERAX filter which I showed earlier was made by Verax GMBH of Dresden. It came in a little set with a holder not unlike Cokin or Lee filters.

 

William


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#7 jaapv

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 20:41

I expect many optical companies made an effort to provide filters and other accessories for Leitz lenses.  I don't think the screw-on or slip-on concept was patentable, but other ideas for attachment were available.  Here is a "sissor" style clip, certainly not useable with a hood.
attachicon.gifIMG_0552.JPG
attachicon.gifIMG_0553.JPG
 
The engraving is:  LeicoHalter   Leisegang & Co.  Reichenberger str. 15
 
Why Leico rather than Leica?    Legal concerns?
If Reichbeger str.15 is the street location, what is the city?    
Google shows Leisegang companies in Frankfurt, but they are patent and medical businesses now.
 
Maybe someone can advise the history.  This filter is too big for the Elmar, but a perfect fit for the 73 Hektor as I have shown.

Is it Leisegang or Liesegang?

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#8 willeica

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 21:56

Is it Leisegang or Liesegang?

 

George Leisegang founded a photographic business in Berlin which existed from the beginning of the last century until World War 2. The Leisegang website features what looks like a photographic products catalogue from the 1920s, although the address given is Schlosplatz The company manufactures medical optical products today. There is a Reichenberger Strasse in Berlin. Leisegang looks like a very strong suspect for the manufacture or supply of the filters shown by Alan.

 

William



#9 alan mcfall

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 22:05

It is Leisegang, same as shown by the William posted web site. Company has a long and interesting history. Likely headquartered in Berlin, completely bombed out and restarted after the war. Famous for their medical Coloscope device.

 

This filter fits the Summitar even better than the 73 Hektor.  More likely it was for the former due to the relatively low production of the Hektor. 

Attached File  IMG_0554.JPG   92.09KB   0 downloads

 

The front flange is 42mm, a little too big for the Summitar cap and a little too small for the Xenon/Summarit cap, There is no marking as to the type of filter, but looks to be a UVa..  I tend to bellieve it is prewar due to finish and the early address marking of Reichenberger.  Originally they were located on Reichenbeger strasse, but now on Lebnizstrasse.

 

 

 


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#10 Pecole

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 16:19

Here is the oldest yellow filter I had in my collection : FILGE slip-on A36 with smaller 23mm diameter glass.

 

Attached File  FILBY old clip-on yellow filter.jpg   84.68KB   0 downloads


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#11 willeica

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 19:21

Thanks Pecole. This is definitely more like the stepped 36mm/23mm glass slip on A model described by Laney. My 'FILBY' is a screw in model about 23mm wide and is similar to the close up lenses. Laney describes a screw in type G filter model introduced in 1931 which may be what my filter is, making my one a FIRHE. What is confusing, though, is that he describes both types as requiring a different model for lenses below SN 9500. The difference between lenses above and below SN 9500 is the fine/coarse nature of the thread around the front ring. This would not have been an  issue with the filter you have shown. Perhaps it has something to do with the milled collar at the front end of the lens. 

 

If you have any other filter types in your photo collection, it might help. There are not that many pictures of filters in the various text books, which makes determining which filter is which quite difficult.

 

William


Edited by willeica, 14 May 2018 - 19:23.

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#12 willeica

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 19:33

Here is the oldest yellow filter I had in my collection : FILGE slip-on A36 with smaller 23mm diameter glass.

 

attachicon.gifFILBY old clip-on yellow filter.jpg

I might add that reading Laney again it seems that he is saying your FILGE design above is the oldest Leica filter design, but I am still confused by the SN 9500 business. I have both kinds of threads on my small screw in close up lenses and I know that fine/coarse thread for Elmars below and above SN 9500 is correct.

 

William


Edited by willeica, 14 May 2018 - 19:33.


#13 alan mcfall

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 22:52

Laney mentions, but does not show, a rarely seen unique filter feature.  That is the engraving of EL on the optical flat itself, to indicate Leitz originality..   Here is a small screw- in filter with the engraving. Check your own collections, maybe you have not previously noticed. this. I think this is not too common, but perhaps others can comment.

 

Attached File  IMG_0561.jpg   90.71KB   0 downloads


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#14 alan mcfall

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 20:45

The earliest filter boxes do not seem to have the code word or the applicable lens marked on the box.  Until interchangeable lenses, the only applications were the 50 Elmar and the Compur, so that is understandable.

 

Attached File  IMG_0563.jpg   158.35KB   0 downloads

 

The box on the left is what I believe to be a 1925-29, box for the FILTU or #3 yellow for the model A camera.

The box in the middlel, a much later FAVOO for the Summar, 90 and 135, code and lenses are marked. Summar is necessary instead of 50, to differentiate from Elmar and Hektor 50's.

Far right is just for fun, a FILSO for the 1933 73mm Hektor (type "C"  in Laney), it seems Leitz quicky went to a screw in type for the 73 Hektor (type "I" in Laney) also in 1933.

 

Very light yellow filters, No. "0" are listed in catalogs, but may not have been popular, as I haven't seen one. Has anyone?


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#15 alan mcfall

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 20:58

Addendum: To be clear, the earliest boxes will likely be the brown "Alligator skin" boxes, like the one on the left here. I am not sure of the exact year that Leitz transitioned to the "Red" boxes.

 

Attached File  IMG_0564.jpg   128.58KB   0 downloads


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#16 willeica

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 22:48

There are two types of early boxes that I have noted

 

Firstly, the brown 'croc boxes' with the appearance of reptile skin for smaller accessories, such as those for close up lenses shown below.

 

Attached File   Leica 1 Model C 1931 on BEVOR with close up lenses (1 of 1).jpg   87.49KB   0 downloads

 

Secondly, for cameras, lenses and larger accessories, such as the BEVOR stand shown below, there was a range of purple or plum coloured boxes, such as that shown below for an early nickel 3.5cm Elmar.

 

Attached File   Leica II Model D 1932 with contemporary lenses (1 of 1).jpg   77.81KB   0 downloads

 

As the 1930s came in, both the early 'croc' and purple/plum boxes were replaced by the familiar red boxes. For example, I have a later chrome 3.5cm Elmar which came in a red pill box with a design similar to that shown above.

 

William


Edited by willeica, 15 May 2018 - 22:50.

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#17 Pecole

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 16:34

Since filters boxes seem to be of interest, here is an image of two ELNY red boxes for 42mm UVa filters I had.

 

Attached File  Filtres copy.jpg   101.63KB   0 downloads




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