50 cron vs 50 lux asph - sharpness only

[jaapv]

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Answer fit for a politician. I know all of that and have Summilux to boot, also APO Summicron. Just wanted to hear streightforward opinion which one resolve better.

Resolution is not the same as sharpness, whatever that may be. Resolution  can be read from the MTF curves of the lenses and will vary from the center of the image to the corners.

The impression of "sharpness", however, is mainly determined by the contrast of the image, not by the amount of ultra-fine detail. Hence the possibility of "sharpening" in postprocessing by increasing the contrast, mainly at sharp transitions. Even by overemphasizing the contrast by creating small haloes, essential to calculate for a sharp print. On film those haloes were created by the developer.

Don't start me on the relationship between contrast and resolution. The post would be to long. As said, read the curves. They summarize lens performance adequately ( but not as well as OTF diagrams)

Dennis Laney explains it well in "Leica Lens Practice"

[mmradman]

Resolution is not the same as sharpness, whatever that may be. Resolution  can be read from the MTF curves of the lenses and will vary from the center of the image to the corners.

The impression of "sharpness", however, is mainly determined by the contrast of the image, not by the amount of ultra-fine detail. Hence the possibility of "sharpening" in postprocessing by increasing the contrast, mainly at sharp transitions. Even by overemphasizing the contrast by creating small haloes, essential to calculate for a sharp print. On film those haloes were created by the developer.

Don't start me on the relationship between contrast and resolution. The post would be to long. As said, read the curves. They summarize lens performance adequately ( but not as well as OTF diagrams)

Dennis Laney explains it well in "Leica Lens Practice"

Jaapv, that is fair answer.  I think we can leave more nuanced discussion for dark days in winter, at least here in Northern hemisphere. 

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[Mr.Q]

Jeez, so much jibberish over a simple question.

 

The Summilux ASPH will give you sharper results stopped down, both in the center and corners.

[lct]

[...] The Summilux ASPH will give you sharper results stopped down, both in the center and corners.

 

It is not my experience i must say. Main differences there may come from focus shift which is more pronounced on the 50/2 v4 or v5. But using both lenses on mirrorless cameras, i hardly see significant differences at f/4 and on aside from flare and CA.

[NigelG]

It is not my experience i must say. Main differences there may come from focus shift which is more pronounced on the 50/2 v4 or v5. But using both lenses on mirrorless cameras, i hardly see significant differences at f/4 and on aside from flare and CA.

 

To answer the OPs question in the spirit it was asked......YES. (corrected - thanks lct)

 

I have a summilux ASPH, summicron v4 and summarit 2.5 as Leica 50s and choosing which one to use based on "sharpness" between f4-8 wouldn't narrow it down. "Rendering"/max aperture/size/weight/focus action/propensity to flare however..............

Edited May 10, 2018 by NigelG

[lct]

I feel a bit confused here, must be my poor English i guess, if so sorry for that. The OP asked: « In terms of just sharpness first in the center of the frame, and then at the edges, do the current 50 summicron and current 50 summilux asph perform pretty much the same from F4 to F8? ». In terms of just sharpness, i.e. aside from focus shift, flare, bokeh and CA, my answer is yes. Quite obvious to me i must say. Are we in agreement?

[NigelG]

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Er sorry - I mean't YES (couldn't see the question while typing...... )

Reply above amended.......

Edited May 10, 2018 by NigelG

[lct]

Haha my English is not that awful then. Thanks for reassuring me .

[ramosa]

On 5/8/2018 at 12:16 PM, jip said:

The Summilux-M is better than the Summicron as an all rounder in my opinion, but then again it's heavier and more expensive. I have both. I do hate the Summicron flare. 

Picking up on this thread a few years later (something I like about LUF), I actually like the Cron 50’s occasional and dramatic lens flare. This can all be subjective at times. I have had both of these 50s, neither now, but maybe one again soon.

[a.noctilux]

9 hours ago, ramosa said:

Picking up on this thread a few years later (something I like about LUF), I actually like the Cron 50’s occasional and dramatic lens flare. This can all be subjective at times. I have had both of these 50s, neither now, but maybe one again soon.

@ramosa

Don't neglect the Summarit-M 2.4/50 or 2.5/50.

I do have other 50mm of course, but this light/small 'cheap' lens 2.5/50 (for it's E39 filter size) ... does wonder, and in use the f/2.5 is only 1/2 stop less than Summicron.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

@ramosa

Don't neglect the Summarit-M 2.4/50 or 2.5/50.

I do have other 50mm of course, but this light/small 'cheap' lens 2.5/50 (for it's E39 filter size) ... does wonder, and in use the f/2.5 is only 1/2 stop less than Summicron.

One of the attributes of the Summarit line is their flare resistance (internal blackening), a quality that ramosa might not desire.

Jeff

[lct]

11 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

One of the attributes of the Summarit line is their flare resistance (internal blackening)

Agree generally but the Summarit 50/2.5 can produce some nasty flare at about 10:00 AM under the sun. Great little lens otherwise. Mine suffers from a loose focus ring though. 

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, lct said:

Agree generally but the Summarit 50/2.5 can produce some nasty flare at about 10:00 AM under the sun. Great little lens otherwise. Mine suffers from a loose focus ring though. 

Interesting… the 35 has especially received praise for its flare resistance (and lack of focus shift), particularly in comparison to the Summicron.

Jeff

[lct]

17 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Interesting… the 35 has especially received praise for its flare resistance (and lack of focus shift), particularly in comparison to the Summicron.

Jeff

Great little lens indeed. It doesn't like much strong light sources when they stand just outside the frame but otherwise it flares somewhat less than my 35/2 asph v1 indeed. As for focus shift, none suffers from it as far as my samples are concerned fortunately. Problem with my Summarit 35/2.5 is again a loose focus ring and i prefer the Biogon 35/2.8 personally but it is a matter of tastes obviously.

[Jeff S]

Yes, we’ve discussed our different experiences regarding focus shift. Not a practical concern for me anyway.

Jeff

[Guest]

On 5/9/2018 at 8:12 PM, pgk said:

 

Neither. Is that a short enough answer? If you can't see the difference its irrelevant and in real world photos you can't. Lens test figures are something else (I used to MTF test lenses for a living once).

Jesus! and i thought being a warehouse operative was boring!!

[a.noctilux]

Out of topic again,

Boring or not, I want to share this reading of Summarit-M lenses, from Erwin Puts

https://photo.imx.nl/styled-10/leica/lenses/page83.html

 

[wizard]

Am 8.5.2018 um 17:29 schrieb jay968:

do the current 50 summicron and current 50 summilux asph perform pretty much the same from F4 to F8

This may seem blunt, but from my own experience it is hard to see any meaningful difference between lenses when comparing them from f4 to f8. The reason is that almost all lenses, even lenses that are +50 years old, perform very well at f4, f5.6 and f8 (for most lenses f4 to f8 is the range of optimum performance). Differences that do exist in that f-stop range are more likely due to sample variation of lenses involved rather than to the f-stop used.

Andy

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, wizard said:

This may seem blunt, but from my own experience it is hard to see any meaningful difference between lenses when comparing them from f4 to f8. The reason is that almost all lenses, even lenses that are +50 years old, perform very well at f4, f5.6 and f8 (for most lenses f4 to f8 is the range of optimum performance). Differences that do exist in that f-stop range are more likely due to sample variation of lenses involved rather than to the f-stop used.

Andy

Hi Andy

Whilst I agree that pretty much all Leica lenses i the last 75 years perform well from f4 to f8, I do think there are some significant changes.

First of all with respect to corner sharpness - older lenses often never really get sharp at the corners, even at smaller apertures

Secondly, and more subtly, the reduction of lateral chromatic aberration in modern lenses still makes a difference at smaller apertures. Older lenses sometimes actually 'appear' to be sharper as aberrations add a kind of 'crunchiness' to high contrast edges which is missing on modern lenses, indeed, I'd say that the modern APO lenses are actually 'gentler' at such apertures.

Whether this amounts to a hill of beans is of course a matter of opinion!

All the best

Jono

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[pgk]

16 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

First of all with respect to corner sharpness - older lenses often never really get sharp at the corners, even at smaller apertures

Not a bad sweeping statement as they go😁. Some do and some don't in my experience. I would say that most practical gains have been in terms of full aperture performance recently.

The idea that older lenses aren't up to current standards is an internet myth driven by the need to sell new lenses, I assume, and the desire by buyers to have 'the best', whether relevant or not. Today there are some extraordinarily good lenses available, from many makers. But just because a 'last or older generation' lens is used for a particular photograph, this  shouldn't demean the image in any way. The truth is that 99.999999% of the image's appeal is in subject, lighting and composition, and provided the lens used was viable for the photograph, then adding a nuance of optical precision is neither here nor there.

Edited October 20, 2021 by pgk