FlashGordonPhotography Posted May 13, 2018 Share #41 Posted May 13, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was asking about your overall comparisons, not any one image. If I didn’t make prints for all my worthy images, I wouldn’t even think about the X1D or equivalent, and probably not Leica or any other expensive gear. But that’s me. Jeff For me, I would go more Leica. Viewing digitally, where the sensor is less important means the lens rendering would be more important to me. I'd be more inclined to shoot with the SL over the X1D because of the lenses. In fact, that's exactly what I do. The SL glass is top of the line especially for CA correction. And I like the blur. Gordon 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 13, 2018 Posted May 13, 2018 Hi FlashGordonPhotography, Take a look here SL+primes vs medium format. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted May 13, 2018 Share #42 Posted May 13, 2018 For me, I would go more Leica. Viewing digitally, where the sensor is less important means the lens rendering would be more important to me. I'd be more inclined to shoot with the SL over the X1D because of the lenses. In fact, that's exactly what I do. The SL glass is top of the line especially for CA correction. And I like the blur. Gordon Thinking further, I’d probably give up ‘serious’ photography if I didn’t make prints. A small camera with a decent VF would suffice for most tasks....and a phone for the rest. More gear and expense would be wasted, and the end product would hold little satisfaction. Maybe take some painting or drawing classes instead. Jeff 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted May 13, 2018 Share #43 Posted May 13, 2018 Screens are becoming cheaper and at higher and higher resolution. Shooting low quality or low resolution images now may feel like a big mistake later when 8k (and higher resolution) is the norm. I see this as the future rather than prints. I still print on my P800 occasionally but a few very high resolution “frames” that could wirelessly update to whichever photo I want to view seems like a better investment to me. Viewing low resolution images today from my earliest digital cameras looks terrible on high resolution screens. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted May 13, 2018 Share #44 Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) Clearly printing is a niche these days. But it’s my niche. I gave up film after 40 years when I decided not to build a 5th darkroom following another home relocation. And switched to digital only after print tools and materials were good enough. And ironically, printers, papers, inks, etc are now better than ever. Just like vinyl records and turntables are now higher quality than when they were the rage. Whatever makes us happy... Jeff Edited May 13, 2018 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meerec Posted May 14, 2018 Share #45 Posted May 14, 2018 I was asking about your overall comparisons, not any one image. If I didn’t make prints for all my worthy images, I wouldn’t even think about the X1D or equivalent, and probably not Leica or any other expensive gear. But that’s me. Jeff Yes I do print. Fine art / gallery quality prints for exhibitions, sale, and books. And for my own wall or storage. So the prints come in different sizes and purposes. I used Canon system for many years, then switched to Leica glass, and now entirely Leica glass and bodies. Occasionally Hasselblad H5D. Very happy with results I am getting 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted May 14, 2018 Share #46 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) A recently (11 hrs ago) released F Stopper Review on Leica SL: Medium format Quality from full frame Mirrorless https://fstoppers.com/originals/medium-format-quality-full-frame-mirrorless-fstoppers-reviews-leica-sl-typ-601-248722 Not a great review but another positive perception of Leica SL performance after 2 years since release speaks overall performance & position of The 24MP SL as a FF digital Mirrorless camera in the market place. Edited May 14, 2018 by sillbeers15 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted May 14, 2018 Share #47 Posted May 14, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Interesting that he thinks Leica has enough customers for the SL within the existing Leica customer base and isn’t looking for other brand users like him to switch over. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted May 14, 2018 Share #48 Posted May 14, 2018 That “review” was pretty poorly written. Grammatical errors were littered throughout and the comparisons to other cameras, including medium format, were baseless. Comparing the price to a 1DX or D5 is meaningless when the camera is not a suitable replacement for those cameras. I say this coming from a D4s, which is all about speed, autofocus, battery life, and handling (dual grip and direct access to just about everything without menus). The battery on the SL is not competitive to top DSLRs and I wouldn’t expect it to be with the EVF. The back display is not competitive with the best either. I love the SL. I don’t see this review being very helpful but for the conclusion where the author wrote about loving the overall experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per P. Posted May 15, 2018 Share #49 Posted May 15, 2018 Well.... he clearly weren't excited about handing it back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistairm Posted May 15, 2018 Share #50 Posted May 15, 2018 The review summarises the experience that many of us had... wow that EVF, holy cow that 24-90 zoom is crazy. With weather sealing and such a good zoom I can replace my Nikon/Canon gear. IQ is undoubtably better and the quality of the EVF is game changing. Together the EVF, zoom, weather sealing and compatibility with most Leica lenses make this a versatile workhorse for anyone wealthy enough to play in the Leica ecosystem and shows what FF mirrorless can do. But, there is a massive price tag to enter the system and for the cost of the camera and one lens I can get a full Nikon/Canon setup that still has better AF, battery life, flash handling etc, so Leica remains an aspirational niche product to admire from afar. Cue the inevitable dentist, doctor, lawyer comments! I don’t think the review isn’t aimed at seriously suggesting the SL is medium format, just an expression to help describe how good Leica glass is compared to the more consumer oriented brands. And just like straight line acceleration doesn’t make a big sedan a sportscar, so drawing that comparison rarely gives any insight, I don’t really think comparing different sensor sizes as looking like each other is usually helpful. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted May 15, 2018 Share #51 Posted May 15, 2018 Weird article...the comments are way better..pure entertainment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per P. Posted May 17, 2018 Share #52 Posted May 17, 2018 Alastair, you're making a good point. The Leica systems are great, with certain reservations, but it is very expensive. If you like their style, can afford it, and the reservations are no concern, then why not. Other systems are also great, but different, and also come with certain reservations - some similar, some different. A year ago a friend of mine consulted me on which camera to buy. In many ways the Leica CL would have been perfect for him. But the camera costs more than he should spend and I did not have the heart to drag him into the additional cost of the lenses so instead I recommended a Fuji. He is completely happy and his photos have never been more interesting than now. He is lusting for the 56mm f/1.2 but just imagine the cost difference if he had been lusting for the 75mm Noctilux instead. As it is he lives in the happy bliss of ignorance and I guarantee a Leica would not improve the impact of his photos one bit. The best of Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji etc. is not exactly cheap but generally less expensive than even second hand Leica. And nobody can seriously claim that the relatively minor constraints of any modern top level system is preventing you from making outstanding photos. Technically as well as aesthetically. Not that this stops any of us discussing the relatively minor differences as if they were important anyway. It's a first world problem, but if we have the time and inclination then why not. The forum wouldn't exist without us 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 17, 2018 Share #53 Posted May 17, 2018 Leica is not a rational choice for anyone unless you are intent on the pursuit of optical excellence regardless of the cost or can indulge in ergonomic and cosmetic preferences without financial constraints. Having said that there are even more expensive systems out there to squander money one with equally marginal benefits in results. If I had more sense I would divert the cash spent on equipment into more trips abroad actually using the stuff rather than planning what to buy next .... 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted May 17, 2018 Share #54 Posted May 17, 2018 If I had more sense I would divert the cash spent on equipment into more trips abroad actually using the stuff rather than planning what to buy next .... Why not both? I used to fly small airplanes. Even got an instructor's rating so that I could earn a little back (bad ROI on that one!). Photography, even with Leica, is a refreshing change. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lx1713 Posted May 17, 2018 Share #55 Posted May 17, 2018 If I had more sense I would divert the cash spent on equipment into more trips abroad actually using the stuff rather than planning what to buy next .... I think my wife is keeping an eye on my equipment just for that reason. She's planning more trips ... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted May 17, 2018 Share #56 Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) Why not both? I used to fly small airplanes. Even got an instructor's rating so that I could earn a little back (bad ROI on that one!). Photography, even with Leica, is a refreshing change. Scott ..... when you are impoverished pensioner and have a partner who still buys designer clothes and Gucci handbags you may well also have to think twice about adding a 75/1.25 to your hoard of Leica gear and the new HB X2D Edited May 17, 2018 by thighslapper Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Posted May 18, 2018 Share #57 Posted May 18, 2018 Honestly? It's not just full frame that is close to medium format. Or even APS-C. Even micro 4/3" can do a really good job at making a big print (or in presenting a nice image onto a monitor) if the circumstances are right and the technique is adequate. Heck, with enough light even 1" will do a good job. Here is an example for you... Two shot taken within a few minutes of each other. Both tripod mounted. One was with a Hasselblad X1D and 45mm lens, the other was with a Leica CL and 23mm Summicron. The X1D shot was made at f/8, and the CL shot was made at f/5.6. I stacked three images in each case to get the depth of field I wanted--from foreground to the back ear of the pig, but letting more distant mint leaves and the background retaining wall blur a bit so the view didn't get too "busy." The CL image is up-sampled to show the same scale and aspect ratio as the Hasselblad. "Adobe Color" was used on the CL and "Embedded" color profile on the Hasselblad; this yields similar color saturation in each. White balance was set to provide a similar look in each, though the CL has a bit more magenta which is pleasing but probably not quite as accurate. Both were shot at base ISO of 100. Shutter speed was 0.6 seconds on the Hasselblad and 0.5s on the Leica. End result? Well, the Hasselblad image has a bit more detail. It also digs a bit deeper in the shadows. And I like the colors a bit more. In particular, I like how the colors aren't lost or muddied as you transition tones (though you'll only notice this when zoomed in). Is it a material difference? I suppose that's up to the viewer. I would say, "Nope." At least not for any reasonably sized print. For all intents and purposes, any camera could have done a really nice job with this subject and this light and a decent tripod. The light adequate and diffuse so no challenge to dynamic range. A tripod was used, so there was no need to push the ISO and no need for image stabilization. Because I was using focus stacking, I was able to shoot at optimum aperture in both cases without any nasty effects from diffraction. Since the subject was static, a slow shutter speed was just fine--no blur from motion. Basically, the world's easiest shooting conditions so both cameras could perform at their best, and the "best" from anything more recent than an iPhone 5 is very good indeed. Change the environment, though, and you certainly won't get the same results out of these two cameras. Shoot a subject with harsher lighting and the dynamic range of the Hasselblad is going to come through. Try shooting small children where quick autofocus is important, or shooting street photography where you don't want to draw the attention of your subject and the strengths of the CL will come through. Try some astrophotography, and the Hasselblad will really shine. Sports? Birding? Both these cameras are a disaster. The point is, depending on how you "design" your experiment, you can either show how incredibly similar two formats are, thus justifying you in asking, "Why would I spend the money on the larger, heavier camera?" Or allowing you to state with confidence, "See? Full frame is every bit as good as medium format!" Or you can setup a scenario where you could truthfully say, "I could never have captured an image this good without my Phase One and IQ180!" It all depends on the usage. Certainly, the SL with its new primes (or with the zooms, for that matter) is capable of taking fantastic images that will hold up well even when compared to images from my X1D. I own and shoot both, so I'm pretty confident saying that. But saying it is blurring the lines with medium format? I don't think I'd go there. Heck, I could just as easily compliment the X1D on its amazingly compact form factor--smaller and lighter than the Leica, depending on the lenses used--while retaining its superior resolution and dynamic range. In reality, I'm going to choose the camera based on the type of shooting I do and based on how I intend to present out my images. For night images, I'd take the X1D in a heartbeat over the SL. But for shooting my daughter's horseback events? The SL is the far superior choice. Ultimately, how well the camera is matched to the particular use will have a bigger impact in image quality than the megapixel count of the camera or the MTF curves of the lenses. Anyway, here are the images and some crops so you can see whether your conclusions match mine... First is the CL... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284381-slprimes-vs-medium-format/?do=findComment&comment=3521172'>More sharing options...
Jared Posted May 18, 2018 Share #58 Posted May 18, 2018 Here is the X1D... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284381-slprimes-vs-medium-format/?do=findComment&comment=3521174'>More sharing options...
Jared Posted May 18, 2018 Share #59 Posted May 18, 2018 Here is a crop from each from the center of the frame... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284381-slprimes-vs-medium-format/?do=findComment&comment=3521175'>More sharing options...
Jared Posted May 18, 2018 Share #60 Posted May 18, 2018 And one from the lower left... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284381-slprimes-vs-medium-format/?do=findComment&comment=3521176'>More sharing options...
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