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Leica Elmarit R 90mm f/2.8 vs Leica Leitz Summicron-R 90mm f2


J514QC

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At the end of the day, I agree mostly with @wizard.   In this case, with these two lenses it matters what you enjoy taking photographs of.

I take a lot of photographs of my cats, and the details in the fur matter.  Because these are concerned effectively ‘very fine’ details, the 40lp matters on larger enlargements.  I print my photos as well as post them.  So, in this case, the Elmarit has the capability of high contrast for the small details - at 5.6, 8.0 - compared to the much older summicron.

The same is true of very busy landscapes - lots of trees, limbs, grasses, etc.  If you take images that do not have those very fine details, and / or you only post on social media at 2,880 pixels on the long side, it is impossible to see the difference.

It’s about intended use and the type of images you take and these two lenses are from very different eras…

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19 hours ago, cbass said:

I am only considering a Type II Elmarit and already have a Summicron-R. I like the aberrations of the Summicron-R and am happy with it as a portrait lens that I typically use at f/4. Commonly from f/2.8 - f/5.6 and rarely at f/2, but like the option.

Size wise neither the length, width, nor weight is significantly different for me to care between the two. However, I would like a useable landscape lens from f/5.6-f/8. Also, up for consideration is a nightscape lens with minimal coma.

From the Leica Lens Compendium:

6.8.11 2.8/90, Elmarit-M, 1990 & 2.8/90, Elmarit-R, 1980

"At 1:4 the contrast improves visibly and at 1:5.6 we reach outstanding image quality with extremely fine detail recorded with high edge sharpness and good clarity over most of the image field. The edges are slightly softer, but this will be visible only when one needs exacting coverage of small details in the corners at bigger enlargements. After this aperture contrast and edge definition drop due to diffraction."

6.8.14 2/90, Summicron-R, from 1970

"Stopped down to 2.8, image quality improves markedly and from aperture 4 there is a gradual improvement till 5.6, where an excellent quality is attained, comparable to that of the M-version. "

So it looks like Type II Elmarit does not have perfect corners at f/5.6, which seems to be the peak aperture. It also appears the Summicron-R also has excellent quality at f/5.6, but it is not clear if edges are as good as the Elmarit. It is also not clear to me if he is referred to the 1963 M-version or from 1980.

6.8.15 2/90, Summicron-M (3), from 1980

"Stopped down to 2.8, the contrast improves and so does the definition of fine detail. Still smaller objects are recorded with fuzzy edges. At 1:4 the definition of very fine detail crispens significantly and at 1:5.6 the overall image quality is of a really high order, comparable to the Elmarit 2.8/90mm,) which has more sparkle and points to the new era as its imagery demonstrates. "

6.8.13 2/90, Summicron (2), 1963

"Stopping down to 1:2.8 brings some improvements in detail rendition and at 1:4 we have excellent quality over most of the picture area, the corners excepted. This lens can be used with confidence at the wider apertures and at distances from 2 to 3 meters to infinity."

So I was looking for feedback from others about performance stopped down and how far off they are in performance.

The Summicron-R bokeh appears to be more pleasing from the sample pictures I have seen.

I repeat:

The 90mm Summicron-R (1970) is a newer and more advanced lens than the 90mm Elmarit-R I (1964); at f/4 to f/8 both should offer about the same image quality. The 1980 90mm Elmarit-R II should be a little better than either at f/2.8, but by f/5.6 I doubt that you could tell them apart. The principle advantage of the 1980 Elmarit-R is the smaller size and lower weight. I have owned and used both of the older lenses, and I cannot say that I could tell them apart at apertures smaller than f/4. If you are obsessed about image quality, get the 90mm APO-Summicron-R ASPH.

Consider this image, made on Kodachrome 25, probably at or near wide-open on the 1970 Summicron-R. Taken around 1978. You may also want to consider the 135mm Elmarit-R or 180mm Elmar-R. 

Helen Close-up

Edited by Ornello
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/22/2022 at 8:52 PM, cbass said:

 

This is exactly the answer I was looking for. Thank you.

Do you have the MTF graphs that you are referring to? It's not that I don't believe you, but I can't find them for the Elmarit-R 90 Version 2 or Summicron-R 90 and would be interested in looking at the data.

I also agree the differences are unlikely to be noticeable stopped down unless using a high MP camera, a tripod, and needing to print extremely large.

For the Summicron R 90’s I used the MTF Graphs in Erwin Puts, Leica Compendium, Third Edition.  I probably cannot post those here because of copyright laws.  And you will not find it in literature with current lenses because the  APO 90 Summicron took its place.  I do not see the PDF in the wiki here.

I’ve looked and do not see it on the web, but Puts volume has tremendous information for many lenses.  I’ll look and see if I can find anything online.

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1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

For the Summicron R 90’s I used the MTF Graphs in Erwin Puts, Leica Compendium, Third Edition.  I probably cannot post those here because of copyright laws.

Maybe, maybe not - Puts used Leitz/Leica's own MTF graphs in most of his publications (e.g. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/3/3a/Puts-2002-M-lenses.pdf )

(It's not as though Puts ran his own lens testing lab - he was a former photojournalist who got interested in lenses and got a lot of inside info from Leica, including lens graphs ;) )

For cbass - the 90 Summicron R non-APO and 90 Elmarit-R v.2 are virtually identical to the Summicron-M v.3 and Elmarit-M (1991) - the Elmarit-M especially was the exact same glass as the Elmarit-R v.2, transplanted into an M rangefinder-focusing mount ~10 years later. You can check out the charts for those lenses in that link above.

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Ref Summicron R 90/2, its MTF chart at f2 is analysed in "How to interpret MTF graphs', Page 112 "Leica Pocket Book 8th Edition" ... out of print and very scarce due to demand ... but Peter Loy lists a copy https://www.peterloy.com/book-shop.php.  The 90mm Summicron R has a reputation for softness at full aperture but it's a super lens; its slight softness at open aperture can be used to advantage. One my Speakers Corner portraits taken using the 90/2 S'cron R was awarded a 'gong' in a print exhibition a few years ago when the judge remarked on the image's very pleasing OOF background ... there's much more to a lens' performance than just its sharpness. Dr Mandler knew a thing or three about lens design; the R 90/2 is one of his team's designs and well worth considering. Videographers use it too. 

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21 hours ago, adan said:

(It's not as though Puts ran his own lens testing lab - he was a former photojournalist who got interested in lenses and got a lot of inside info from Leica, including lens graphs ;) )

 

I know that he used Leica’s information, but I could not find a public source of that information and just don’t feel comfortable putting  copyrighted information in the forum, even if his source was Leica AG. His Leica Compendium has some really old MTF graphs that I’m not sure are easily found on the internet today, if at all.  I was trying to find a source I could link to on the internet is all..

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21 hours ago, adan said:

the 90 Summicron R non-APO and 90 Elmarit-R v.2 are virtually identical to the Summicron-M v.3 and Elmarit-M (1991) - the Elmarit-M especially was the exact same glass as the Elmarit-R v.2, transplanted into an M rangefinder-focusing mount ~10 years later. You can check out the charts for those lenses in that link above.

The issue is that the 90 Summicron R and 90 Summicron M lenses (both non APO) are very different at f/5.6.  The link you provided is a 2002 compendium by Erwin Puts that does not include R lenses.  The three 2011 editions include the R version and at f/5.6, the 40 lppm start at a contrast at about 58% and the 20 lppm at 82%, rather than the Elmarit 90 R version 2, which is significantly higher on both accounts and has much less aberration as the MTF lines are in synch, like an APO lens.  The M version of the 90 Summicron has much higher contrast at f/5.6 with 40 lppm at 75% and 20 lppm at 90%, but the same type of aberrations.  The M version was designed in 1980 and the R version in 1970.  

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8 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Dr Mandler knew a thing or three about lens design; the R 90/2 is one of his team's designs and well worth considering. Videographers use it too. 

Just a note that Mr. Mandler also designed the 90 Elmarit version 2!

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"As for Mandler his lens designs are terrible. Nobody is buying that huh? Well.....it was my best attempt at trying to drop demand and prices for Mandler lenses. Mandler was more than a lens designer. He seemed to have an artistic eye and even with aberrations the results of his lenses are very pleasing. "

👍

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