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Leica Elmarit R 90mm f/2.8 vs Leica Leitz Summicron-R 90mm f2


J514QC

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Since you will be using the lens on an electronic viewfinder camera, I recommend the first version of the 90mm Elmarit R lens.  This lens is available with one cam, two cams or three cams.  They all have the same optics, which are superb - my all time favorite lens.  The single cam lens will be the cheapest since it can only be used on the original Leicaflex.  The two cam can be used on the original leicaflex and SL cameras.  The three cam can be used on these cameras and the R series cameras.  If you will not be using the lens on Leicaflex cameras, buy a good condition single cam lens.  It is available at bargan basement prices.

This lens can use the elpro VIIa closup lens which gets you to down to 1:3 magnification.  Since the Elpro is an achromatic lens, you suffer no loss in optical quality.

The second version 90mm Elmarit R lens is a telephoto design so it is smaller than the version 1 lens.  It is also superb but will be expensive.  I think it is provided as a three cam lens, and later as only a one cam lens for use exclusively on the R series Leica R cameras. 

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On 4/30/2020 at 8:28 AM, eilert anders said:

The second version 90mm Elmarit R lens is a telephoto design so it is smaller than the version 1 lens.  It is also superb but will be expensive.  I think it is provided as a three cam lens, and later as only a one cam lens for use exclusively on the R series Leica R cameras. 

Does anyone here have experience with the second version? Since the design is different, at least the bokeh rendering (perhaps the color too) should be somewhat different, but google is of no help, when it comes to finding samples, or any information about the differences between these 2.

Edited by Sinasina
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I was going to take a sample picture for you with my 2004 vintage 90mm 11807 Elmarit-M and an M10-R but then I realised it was one of the lenses I had not taken down to France with me, as I had the range well covered with L mount lenses. However, I would say it is maybe the sharpest of the many M lenses I have. Erwin Puts describes it as: "The optical performance of the Elmarit-M at full aperture is outstanding. The overall contrast is high to very high." The bokeh is perfectly acceptable and pleasantly soft but not something special like I get from my 85mm/f1.5 Summarex or 75/1.25. If you can wait a month, I will be back in the UK (and in quarantine, so totally bored) and can take some photos with my M10-R and 90 Elmarit-M. 

Wilson

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  • 3 months later...

So, I have a 90 Elmarit R and am trying to see what version it is.  I found some serial # lists and it says mine should be a version II, but everywhere I look it shows version II is made in Canada and mine says Wetzlar on the front and Made in Germany on the barrel.  It takes 55mm filters but the lens hood looks like photos of version I.  I am confused.  I think I am going to convert it to my Nikon mount to see how it performs.  I still have my R8, but it has not had a roll of film passed through it in years.  Too bad as I love that camera, but film is so expensive and then most of what I do is online or printing from my computer.

Aram

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This is the verion II Elmarit-R - if it looks like this, that is what you have.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_II

Especially if the number agrees. It has a simple one-piece pull-out hood - the v.I has a telescoping "layered" hood.

Version I - longer lens, two-ring hood: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-R_I

Note that the v. II was made for a period of 18 years 1980-1998, which covered major changes in the Leica factories (and even the company named changed, from Ernst Leitz to Leica). Original Wetzlar factory phased out 1986 and moved to Solms, Germany. Then Canadian factory phased out between 1986 and ~1990, and ALL production was moved to Solms, until the "new" Wetzlar factory opened about 2014.

But even then, parts already made (and sometimes engraved) in Canada might be assembled years later in Solms. And even then, lens types (e.g. 90 Elmarit-R) were assigned blocks of serial numbers, which for low-production lenses might stretch over several years and versions, and in that era of change, several factories.

In addition, R lenses especially sometimes were built in both Germany and Canada simultaneously, depending on demand, during the period approximately 1975-90.

Trivia - the more-compact v. II 90mm Elmarit-R optics were "ported" or repurposed for Leica M mount as well, from 1990 until 2007.

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The 2004 vintage 90 Elmarit-M I have might be the sharpest/highest resolving LTM, M or R Leica lens I have, out of around 50 lenses. It is only when I get to SL lenses that any lens has beaten it. I have the 90mm focal length in R mount lenses well covered with two good zooms, otherwise I would buy an Elmarit R-II. They are currently about the best value in R lenses at around £300 to £500. For example, here is an R-II for sale in the UK at £390 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leica-R-90mm-Elmarit-3-cam-f2-8-lens-3360286/363218526299?hash=item549182e05b:g:1YsAAOSw4A1f1gyP

Wilson

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I was tracking down the four lenses that were issued with the Leicaflex in 1964.

I purchased an early 90 Elmarit with series VII filter mount. I’ve used this lens for portraits, street and various purposes and am very pleased with it. The 135 Elmarit also takes series VII filters, while the 35 & 50 take series VI. I won’t bother with a 90 Summicron as they command a high price and would simply duplicate a focal length. The price of this legacy glass is rising sharply as digital Johnny’s are snapping them up to mount them on Japanese digital cameras. 
 

This stuff is seriously good. It’s build quality is quite unlike anything else I have used and seems built to last. It’s an amazing system to use. I’ve been researching the Leicaflex cameras and their lenses and it’s fascinating. 

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I have owned both the Elmarit and the Summicron (first versions). Both are superb. The Elmarit (first version) is a little longer and takes Series 7 filters (whereas the first version of the Summicron takes E48 or E55 filters in addition to Series 7. From that standpoint, I prefer the Summicron. The revised Elmarit takes E55 filters, but I believe it was made only with 'third-cam only' mount.

Edited by Ornello
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90 Summicron-R. Taken on Kodachrome 25 around 1978, probably wide-open:

 

There were three different varieties of the first version. (The second version is a completely different lens, with aspheric elements and APO correction.)

The first variety has a narrow focussing ring and takes series 7 filters with a retaining ring, or E-48 filters directly.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284514287265?hash=item423e5f7ea1:g:T~kAAOSw8jFhRKE8

The second variety is almost identical, except that the filter thread has been slightly enlarged from 54mm (series 7 thread) to E55. The numeral '90' appears on the lens surface. It looks basically identical to the first variety.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384450375611?hash=item5983072fbb:g:ZGkAAOSwLQNhayLa

The third variety has a much wider focussing ring, slightly different built-in shade, but still takes E55 filters. So far as I know it was offered only in 3rd-cam only lens mount. I bought one and had it modified to three-cam mount.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165141098132?hash=item26732d2e94:g:KdcAAOSwD~1hcYfT

 

Edited by Ornello
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  • 6 months later...

It is very possible that some R lenses were optimized for closer focusing distances (different mathematics for parallel light rays (infinity) vs. diverging light rays (close to the subject)).

Erwin Puts suggests this is so for the 90 Summicron-R (1970) compared to the 90 Summicron-M v.3 (1980) - "on the assumption that the R-system woud be more frequently used in that range". (Leica Lens Compendium, pp. 175-6).

I still find that Elmarits exceed or equal Summicrons - excepting the APO-Summicrons. Simply because the designer did not have to deal with the demands of f/2.0 at all.

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5 minutes ago, cbass said:

I guess if I am happy with the Summicron-R, then there is no need to search for anything else and not worry about it. Perhaps one day I will find someone with a Elmarit-R that will let me do my own comparison or find one for a price I won't be able to leave it behind.

I have both.  A 3 cam Summicron-R 90mm and a 2 cam Elmarit-R 90mm.   I just recently bought the Summicron, and I'd decided to sell the Elmarit and already had it listed.  This thread caused me to take down the listing.  I think I'll keep both.  :)

The bottom line in all of these discussions is that when you look at an image, you cannot tell what camera body, film, or lens was used.  You may like the look of one print better than another for reasons of taste, but you can't tell what lens took any given photo.   

Edited by hepcat
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Before the 90 APO Summicron came out (M and R are the same), the 90 Elmarit 2.8 (version 2) was the sharpest 90mm wide open that Leica had (again, M and R are the same) - ignoring the M Macro f/4.  I have both and have used both (M and R, Elmarit and APO).  At 2.8 the Elmarit has plenty of focus fall off because it is a 90.  The M Macro 90 f/4 has plenty of fall off and can be used for portraiture.

The 90 ‘cron (M and R) that is not APO has very low contrast wide open and at 2.8 does not equal the Elmarit.  

Between the two I would always take the Elmarit, unless I wanted the aberrations of the older ‘cron.

Edited by davidmknoble
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29 minutes ago, cbass said:

Is there an aperture that the non-APO cron catches up to the Elmarit? 
For example, at f/5.6 - f/8 how does the cron compare to the Elmarit for a landscape shot?

I have owned both, though not at the same time. Both are splendid lenses. The Elmarit came out in 1964, and is based on the old M design. It is not a telephoto design. That is why it is physically longer than the Summicron (introduced in 1969), which is a telephoto design. I never did any comparison between the two, since I sold the Elmarit when I got the Summicron. I would not worry at all about the quality of the Summicron. Most lenses of that type reach optimum aperture at around f/4-f/5.6. The Type II Elmarit (1980) is smaller and lighter than its predecessor or the Summicron. For hiking and such I would buy that one, for that reason. Otherwise, for most purposes, there is very little reason to prefer the Type I Elmarit except on the basis of cost. 

In short, buy the Type II Elmarit if the lighter weight is a factor, and the Summicron if it is not. The Type I Elmarit weighs almost as much as the Summicron.

Edited by Ornello
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11 hours ago, cbass said:

Is there an aperture that the non-APO cron catches up to the Elmarit? 
For example, at f/5.6 - f/8 how does the cron compare to the Elmarit for a landscape shot?

The version II Elmarit 90 is from 1983, the summicron 90 from 1970.  The 13 year difference has a lot to show.  Even at f/5.6, the Elmarit has a very tight contrast (40 lp start at a contrast of 75%) while the ‘cron has much less contrast (40 lp start at 58%).  While MTF graphs don’t tell the whole picture, the finest details will be much more discernible on today’s high megapixel sensors (SL2, M10M, M11).  Further, the MTF lines of the Elmarit are basically in the same place, while the cron’s MTF lines only converge at the center, and split from there with large falloff’s in the extreme corners.  This means the aberrations of the Elmarit are much better controlled.

For film the differences were not as noticeable with higher speeds and hand-held at middle f/stops.  However, with tripods, or high pixel counts, the different is much more substantial.  For an inexpensive all-around very good 90mm lens, the Elmarit Version 2 is noticeably better at all f/stops.

Erwin Putts says this:  Elmarit - full aperture contrast is high and very fine detail is crisply rendered, close up performance is as good as infinity, flare suppression is excellent as coma is well controlled.  Summicron - Full aperture, contrast is low to medium with coarser details recorded with fuzzy edges, flare is somewhat less well suppressed.

The lower contrast was used in some lenses to deal with high contrast light that reporters frequently had to deal with.  The lower contrast effectively lowered the negative contrast.  The trade off was how sharp the resulting images appeared.

Hope this helps..

David.

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The version III Elmarit 90 (1990-2007) is even sharper than its predecessors. I would say this is my sharpest Leica M lens until I got the 35 APO Summicron. However it is sharp without the disturbingly super high edge contrast that the FLE lenses such as the 50 ASPH Summilux have. On digital sensors, this can give rise to purple fringing. I sold my 50 ASPH back in 2008, when I was using an M8 as my main digital camera, because of this, so I don't know if later M digital cameras solved this issue. I currently use a 50 Summilux III Special Edition for a 50mm lens on my M10-R. I noticed the same thing when I was lent a 35mm FLE Summilux to use on my M9, so decided to stick with my 35 ASPH Summilux, admittedly a very good one, with minimal aperture shift. 

Wilson

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb cbass:

So I was looking for feedback from others about performance stopped down and how far off they are in performance.

Differences in lens performance are mostly visible at full aperture or close to full aperture. Once you stop down to f5.6 or even f8, differences are really negligible, and in practice are often non-existent. I own several 90mm Leica lenses (4/90 3-element, Macro 4/90, Elmarit-M 2.8/90 latest version, 2/90 asph), and stopped down to f8 it is almost impossible for me to tell which shot was taken with which lens, as the performance at f8 is so similar.

So in my view, you should not bother. Your Summicron 2/90 lens at f5.6 or f8 will in practice be just as good as a late version Elmarit 2.8/90 at the same apertures. Don't forget sample variation, if your Summicron is already very good at f4, chances are that you have a very good sample, and a not so good Elmarit 90 could even perform worse than your Summicron. And even if you manage to find an excellent copy of the Elmarit lens, you will most likely not be able to tell the two lenses (Summicron and Elmarit) apart at f5.6 or f8, image-wise that is.

In summary, keep enjoying your Summicron lens, it IS a very, very good lens at f5.6 and f8.

Edited by wizard
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