Farewell to the 135 APO-Telyt-M

[efreed2754]

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A little like a death in the family. Not good feeling. Thought about new run vs future demand sounds right.

 

Have the 135 APO Telyt and use it for trips expecting need for longer reach. Major benefits are—-

 

1) When shooting over long distances often set to infinity so no focus issues then. Can stop down and increase ISO during the day if need more DOF. When did focus closer up never had much of an issue with the M, though just got M10 and haven’t tried 135 yet but expect better focusing results

 

2) Having the 135 on trips and with cropping means not worth lugging 180R lens, adapter, Viso and 2X converter. Much lighter, more compact and more M like. Trade off in weight vs reach a good one IMHO.

 

Guess this reinforces having M10 and definitely plan on continuing to use 135 for all but longest reach needs.

[Jeff S]

This would have been a nice, relatively small, option for use on the SL, so I suspect Leica will instead promote some bigger and more expensive native SL prime options. Eventually.

 

Jeff

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[pgk]

But for all I know Leica, Canon, Nikon etc all produce all their own glas. Canon for sure, at least, at least they say so in their advertisements.

 

There are very few optical glass manufacturers in the world. According to an optical designer friend, glass is bought from catalogues listing specifications. I'm doubtful that any camera lens manufacturers actually make their own glass. Why do so when it takes substantial experise and is costl. Much better to go to the specialists and buy what's on offer especially if its available in quantity.

[Herr Barnack]

When I was in Wetzlar about a year ago I learned that they plan to built 80 M cameras per day provided everything goes well. At the time of my visit they were at 60 a day and they built ONLY M10. Other M models might be slipped in between when necessary but then there are less M10 built they said. This given the number of 80 is somehow the maximum production capacity. It was not said that they plan to go to 500 a day. No, only 80. That makes 400 a week (they have no night shift and do not work over the weekend (is that right?). That results roughly in 1600 M a month and roughly 20'000 a year. And assuming that they do not reach the number of 80 per day but stay in the worse case down to 60 a day as it was a year ago, then this would be 25% less which would roughly result in 15'000 units a year. As a consequence the mentioned 10'000 are probably too low. Maybe 15 to 20'000 would be more accurate.

 

If Leica is building and selling 15-20K M10s per year, I would have to think that they are not on their corporate death bed - or could even be considered gravely ill. 

 

That small number does define them as a specialty or niche camera maker, but that is not news to any of us.  The very nature of the M camera design and manufacturing process prohibits spewing fourth billions of cameras per year as Nikon, Canon and Sony do.  That has never been Leica's ambition or need anyway.

 

The sale of M10 bodies will also stimulate the sale of lenses, as not everyone who buys an M10 is a longtime M shooter with several lenses to choose from.  People who are new to the M system will need to buy lenses for their new M10s, which will only help Leica's economic circumstances.  And then there are guys like me who are plotting and planning for their next new M lens purchase.

 

Bottom line - the sky is not falling.  Leica has survived much worse than selling "only" 15-20K M cameras a year:  https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6984380949/leica-financialtrouble

Edited May 4, 2018 by Herr Barnack

[tsleica]

Maybe they are coming out with a 135mm f1.5 (4lb) Summibutt..at 30K...

They have the Thumpper SF 90mm ..and the 75mm f1.25 Noctipoor...lol...

But all kidding aside..I don't think it makes much sense to discontinue the 135mm for good...just make it smaller...redesign it..

Edited May 4, 2018 by tsleica

[frame-it]

its just a rumor right ?

[mmradman]

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I generally like Erwin Puts's blog (and find his philosophical musings more interesting than his lens evaluations) but think he's stretching things a bit here. I would imagine that Leica haven't built a batch of the 135/F3.4 for many years and have been running down factory stocks (either finished or part built) and now the cupboard is empty. I dare say they have done their sums and have concluded that recent demand for this lens doesn't justify building another batch. It may also be the case that the necessary personnel deployment and materials sourcing to produce another batch would necessitate a substantial price rise on this low demand lens, making it an uneconomic prospect. I don't think it indicates a lack of commitment to the M system, particularly in the light of the recent lens introductions and probable forthcoming 90/F1.5.

Agree more or less, low volume lens, not sexy enough with f3.4, doesn't sell well, kill it. 

 

The way i read Erwin Puts is that new Noctilux 75mm and other similar fast primes are pondering to die hard core of Leica M users, there is mention of low volume of M cameras 10 -20 thousand being produced annually.  Also to increasingly, and no doubt important, growing crowd of EVF camera users, people who buy Leica for BOKEH.  I think somewhere on own web Leica is recommending using new Noctilux with SL601.

[adan]

But for all I know Leica, Canon, Nikon etc all produce all their own glas. Canon for sure, at least, at least they say so in their advertisements.

 

Leitz/Leica closed their own glass factory in 1989. http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2012/04/in-memory-of-leitz-glass-laboratory.html

 

I don't think any lens makers pour their own glass any more - they get it from Hoya or Schott or perhaps CDGM or Ohara, who each produce a whole range with various refractive indices, dispersions, Abbe numbers, etc.

 

https://www.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/products/optical-materials/optical-glass/optical-glass/index.html

 

http://www.hoyaoptics.com/pdf/optical.pdf

 

http://www.cdgmglass.com/

 

As with many auto parts, it is cheaper overall to buy glass off-the-shelf from a handful of specialized suppliers than have duplicated factory costs within each company.

 

Canon produces a handful of specialized "glass," mostly the fluorite elements (not really silica glass, but a chemically-different fluorine-oxide crystal). And, of course, Leica etc. can give specs to a glass factory, and have the factory produce a special run to meet those specs. But as with the 135 itself, there has to be a sustainable market, or a glass will be discontinued.

 

http://www.ora-blogs.com/kevin/2010/09/the-sparsification-of-optical-glasses-and-its-impact-on-optical-design-optimization.html

 

That is, of course, not necessarily the reason for the departure of the 135 APO - it is a possibility. Leica usually trumpets the fact if a lens has extra-special (extra-low dispersion, or whatever) glass - and they do not do so in the spec sheet for the 135 APO.

Edited May 4, 2018 by adan

[Tailwagger]

After a night to sleep on it, perhaps the real takeaway is that it signals that there are no plans for a EVF-only M mount camera.  OTOH, from the outside Leica's business strategies do look totally insane. Three days ago they raised the price of the lens, yesterday we seem to find out its discontinued.  The M10, up $800 in a little over a year,  when supply seems to have fully met demand.  The new 240 pricing is astonishing for a 5-6 year old camera.   Certainly not what we see from anyone else, with older models dropping in price, not increasing. 

 

[lct]

[...] perhaps the real takeaway is that it signals that there are no plans for a EVF-only M mount camera. [...]

 

+1. Those disliking rangefinders with sluggish EVFs are supposed to go for an SL and wait for the next Godzilux 135/1.4. Sony won't launch a model with thin sensor stack hopefully for Leica. 

[Nordvik]

When I was in Wetzlar about a year ago I learned that they plan to built 80 M cameras per day provided everything goes well. At the time of my visit they were at 60 a day and they built ONLY M10. Other M models might be slipped in between when necessary but then there are less M10 built they said. This given the number of 80 is somehow the maximum production capacity. It was not said that they plan to go to 500 a day. No, only 80. That makes 400 a week (they have no night shift and do not work over the weekend (is that right?). That results roughly in 1600 M a month and roughly 20'000 a year. And assuming that they do not reach the number of 80 per day but stay in the worse case down to 60 a day as it was a year ago, then this would be 25% less which would roughly result in 15'000 units a year. As a consequence the mentioned 10'000 are probably too low. Maybe 15 to 20'000 would be more accurate.

I remember reading that at the end of M9 production they have reached 80 cameras pr. day. So nothing new. I think they have at least 4 weeks holiday in Germany/Portugal, and that the factories are closed then? 15-20000 cameras a year do not sound like much, but i think that is more than the total production in the seventies (excluding M5, 33900).

[jaapv]

After a night to sleep on it, perhaps the real takeaway is that it signals that there are no plans for a EVF-only M mount camera.  OTOH, from the outside Leica's business strategies do look totally insane. Three days ago they raised the price of the lens, yesterday we seem to find out its discontinued.  The M10, up $800 in a little over a year,  when supply seems to have fully met demand.  The new 240 pricing is astonishing for a 5-6 year old camera.   Certainly not what we see from anyone else, with older models dropping in price, not increasing. 

That is Leica economics. I'll wait a half year before selling mine (which I was planning). The price will have skyrocketed.

[luigi bertolotti]

_{They have had a 135 in their pricelists from 1930...  ...pity they renounce to, but seems clear that is a focal of marginal appeal for new M users ("traditional" users have already their own 135, and there are lot of very good used TE135 in the market) ... the rest is economics...  probably, it even does not deserve a "last 100" special edition...}  

[UliWer]

Three pages based on a remark by someone who published a rant some months ago that he doesn‘t get inside information by Leica anymore.

 

Lets have a look on available facts:

 

The Leica website still lists the Apo-Telyt: https://de.leica-camera.com/Fotografie/Leica-M/M-Objektive/APO-Telyt-M-1-3,4-135-mm

 

You can buy it frome the online store: https://store.leica-camera.com/de/de/detail/index/sArticle/545?utm_source=Retailer%20list&utm_medium=buyNowButton&utm_campaign=leicaCorporateSite&utm_content=de

It says: „available, delivery in 2 to 5 days“.

 

Anybody here who wants to buy it? Anybody who bought it since the first EVF was offered for a Leica M?

 

Anybody asked Leica whether the statement by Mr. Puts is true?

[Paul J]

Three pages based on a remark by someone who published a rant some months ago that he doesn‘t get inside information by Leica anymore.

 

Lets have a look on available facts:

 

The Leica website still lists the Apo-Telyt: https://de.leica-camera.com/Fotografie/Leica-M/M-Objektive/APO-Telyt-M-1-3,4-135-mm

 

You can buy it frome the online store: https://store.leica-camera.com/de/de/detail/index/sArticle/545?utm_source=Retailer%20list&utm_medium=buyNowButton&utm_campaign=leicaCorporateSite&utm_content=de

It says: „available, delivery in 2 to 5 days“.

 

Anybody here who wants to buy it? Anybody who bought it since the first EVF was offered for a Leica M?

 

Anybody asked Leica whether the statement by Mr. Puts is true?

 

 

Just because they have it in stock doesn't mean they will make any more. They could have stock laying around for another decade. Why would they take it off their site?

[jaapv]

That is right. I bought a brand-new M6 Classic a few years ago. And an R9.

[darylgo]

Three pages based on a remark....

 

Can you imagine how many pages if Leica discontinued the 35 or 50 Summilux.

Makes me wonder which is the most popular lens in terms of current sales, love, historical sales.

[robert_parker]

I've just come across this thread and if the rumors are true then the loss of the 135 APO is sad news indeed - I prefer this focal length to 90 and find it much more versatile and fun for portraits as well as the usual short - telephoto purposes.

 

M8,2 135 APO 3,4 wide open, Dranouter, Belgium

 

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[robert_parker]

Same event, same lens...

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Simon]

It’s been all but confirmed that this “scare” is completely unfounded, but here’s my reaction anyway:

 

At the very least the 135 mm focal length makes the range of 16/18-135 mm sound rather comprehensive and complete, for a camera system of this type anyway. 16-90 mm sounds just that bit too limited, especially given the 135’s long history in the M lineup. I’m quite sure they don’t sell many of the 18 mm Super Elmars either, but it’s a fantastic lens and equally valuable on the other end of the prime range for the same reason.

 

It seems unlikely they’ll let this focal length become unavailable for long if at all. Erwin’s rant seems to be based on no inside information and little to no evidence. B&H are not listing it as discontinued and it’s still listed on Leica’s website and available in their shops.

 

It’s hard to know what’s prompted his outburst. It’s rather inconsistent, at one point claiming the M-system is Leica’s cash-cow (probably true) while simultaneously and melodramatically prophesying its doom. I don’t get that impression given Leica’s, latest releases, and the interest and releases from other vendors at all. On the contrary; such overwhelmingly niche lenses as the Thambar and the massive and virtually unobtainable (even for most Leica users) Noctilux 75 mm scream confidence to me. And why not? The M10 is a winner and we’ve got the range of M10-derived relatives and special editions to come still.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Simon