Farewell to the 135 APO-Telyt-M

[Linford]

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I  guess I am not surprised by this decision. But, I have to believe something else might be coming in the future. Leica's decision to introduce a lens as esoteric as the Thumbar would indicate their continued commitment to the M platform not to mention the 75-Nocti. However, I do agree with JAAPs earlier stated opinion the M10 and I too suspect future M's will be less versatile and further agree with the opinion that Leica clearly feels the L platform is the future. Having said all of that, I have to say that I really like the 135 Telyt and prefer it to the 2/90 Summicron for portraits and sporting events. It really is amazingly compact for 135mm. I also have the 2.8/180 R but that is a much bigger lens and almost too big for the M10. Let's hope there might be a future Telyt in the works. Cheers--lt

[jaapv]

 

Sure. A sign that EVF has failed? Let us make a contest of reasons to discontinue the lens. There are so many as rational as the above apology. Perhaps we should look forward to the discontinuation of the frame lines. We shall see.

 

IMHO, prospective M customers simply do no like a lens that sticks out, disturbing the compact, subtle profile of the M.

You should use some more historical insight, Pico. The MATE was discontinued for exactly those two reasons. Nothing apologetic about it. I think that big, heavy lenses on the M is a spurious reason. Leica M users love the Noctilux.

 

 

M-camera bodies, I am sure. (And the 75 Noctilux may fall into the "killer app" category - people buy Leica M cameras just to get that lens - the marketplace will determine if that works or not.)

 

There was a time a few years ago (early M9 era) when I quit using any M 135 myself, and stuck to 90s - with a 180 APO-Telyt mounted on a Canon body. Focusing just too frustrating with an M/135. Ultimately I got tired of carrying two cameras and the extra weight, so it was nice to have the 135s (and eventually the M10) to fall back on, and I've been trying to stick with that (and a 75 f/2.4) ever since.

I never found focusing the problem, my dislike is the minuscule frame and difficulty to distinguish detail in the image.

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[Mark II]

. . . and there are the framelines for the 135mm in the OVF of our M cameras

Exactly. Puts claim (in his original post) that current cameras do not have 135mm framelines does not do much for the credibility of the rumour. Linguistic trouble?

 

That said, and having used a Canon 135mm f2 extensively, I personally do not find the longer focal lengths for the M series particularly compelling.

[jaapv]

The longest lens I have used on an M was the Apo-Telyt with 2x converter. It was possible to gain focus in about 75% of the cases.

[darylgo]

The L mount might be the future of Leica but not yet and I would venture a guess that it isn't close.  Just two years ago you could pick up T lenses for a song, new and used, the SL lenses lose value quickly, the SL body price was reduced due to poor sales.  Used M prices are on the rise, sales of used equipment appear brisk with quick sales of newly listed items.  The S system is currently very quiet.  I haven't inquired of dealers lately but in the past I've heard them state they sale everything they get, the LA Leica Store just a few months ago had extremely low stock on all Leica equipment.  

 

If looking at the newly introduced lenses, Leica has released two 75mm, one 85mm, one 90mm in M and L mounts, clearly they see these focal lengths as their strength, leaving the 135mm to be somewhat ignored.   The market for the 135mm is odd, the older f4 version, nearly as good optically as the current model sells for less than any Leica lens by a large margin, I can't think of any other Leica lens that could be purchased for $400 with such stellar IQ.  The Leica rep himself told me not to purchase the 135/3.4 when he saw me shooting the 135/4, so it makes me wonder if there are large number of copies of both old and new with this somewhat ignored focal length.  When looking backwards to the R system the 135mm focal length was never a wow lens, compare that to the 100mm, 180mm and 280mm R lenses that are only presently being challenged for their IQ.  

 

It's always sad to see a product discontinued but then my 135mm is the only Leica lens that sits in a drawer of least used equipment.      

Edited May 4, 2018 by darylgo

[pgk]

I have a 135/4 Tele-Elmar-M E46 version which I use regularly. I've had a few others: 3 of the E39 version and an f/2.8 version. The only one which has proved usable in the long term has been the E46 copy - all the others had RF focus issues or optical issues (the f/2.8). My E46 version is a very good lens. I believe that the Apo-Tely-M is better wide open but in all honesty my copy isn't bad and at f/4 its trickier to focus using the RF than stopped down which is where I use it most. Perhaps this is the problem. Numerous copies of older flawed lenses, a limited, but in my view bargain priced, number of the E46 versions, and an expensive Apo version which is a relatively uncommon lens from what I've seen advertised. My guess is that sales simply aren't that great. The 135mm focal length has never been that popular and with plenty of cheap, used lenses, a small frame in the viewfinder and high new cost I can't see any reasons to retain it if its not making money. Pity.

 

Given this news, if I didn't have a 135 and wanted one I'd be looking for an f/4 E46 copy now, since they are half the price of the apo and they do appear occasionally (2 for sale in UK dealerships currently I think). Mine's a keeper.

 

[All that said, there are plenty of good cheap 135s available these day so its not a big deal with an evf.]

Edited May 4, 2018 by pgk

[darylgo]

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You make a good point of RF issues or optical issues, both my e39 and e46 required adjustment. Oddly, despite being 20-30 years difference and a redesigned barrel they imaged identical, I couldn't tell them apart down to the minutest detail.

[pgk]

You make a good point of RF issues or optical issues, both my e39 and e46 required adjustment. Oddly, despite being 20-30 years difference and a redesigned barrel they imaged identical, I couldn't tell them apart down to the minutest detail.

 

Same optics, just a mechanical redesign as far as I can discover. From threads here on the LUF it appears that the E39 mechanical design could suffer from focus calibration problems which seem to have made some copies difficult to adjust for digital use. Given that the E46 redesign was substantial and probably a fairly costly exercise, you do have to wonder why so much effort was put into a lens which probably didn't see that many sales (according to the wiki they only produced ~2700 of the E46 version) unless the original design was problematic in some way?

[Paul J]

This is not a good sign at all. The 135 is a very useful focal length, especially now we have an EVF, and I would think that it would shrink down market potential even further if people don't see a reasonable reach at least as an option for a system.

 

The 135 has been a staple part of the M for so long. I really hope they have a replacement. Maybe they will launch a new Elmarit?

 

But then....the 135 APO is already optically very good and there are surely other lenses that would be better suited for updates.

 

Doesn't look good for the poor M System.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Paul J

[Keith (M)]

I have used my 135mm APO-Telyt for a broad range of subjects  (examples on my Flickr page) with M240 and both OVF and EVF. A quite versatile lens and one I will not be selling anytime soon - despite the fact that whenever I write about this lens, I always end up saying "I really must use it more often..." 

[pgk]

The 135 has been a staple part of the M for so long. I really hope they have a replacement.

 

One can hope - a  smaller, lighter (dare I say cheaper?) lens perhaps - might make it rather more sellable too.

[onasj]

I’ll also point out that the MTF curves for the 135 APO wide open are quite similar to those of the remarkable 50 APO wide open, consistent with my experience shooting both (though the 135 needs more contrast boost in post). So I can’t imagine that a revision is imminent... there’s not that much to improve.

 

At last night’s Celtics playoff game the 135 APO again surprised me, even though I focused it exclusively by rangefinder wide open at 1/350s. I’ll post some frames soon.

Edited May 4, 2018 by onasj

[M11 for me]

M-camera bodies, I am sure. (And the 75 Noctilux may fall into the "killer app" category - people buy Leica M cameras just to get that lens - the marketplace will determine if that works or not.)

 

. . . 

 

When I was in Wetzlar about a year ago I learned that they plan to built 80 M cameras per day provided everything goes well. At the time of my visit they were at 60 a day and they built ONLY M10. Other M models might be slipped in between when necessary but then there are less M10 built they said. This given the number of 80 is somehow the maximum production capacity. It was not said that they plan to go to 500 a day. No, only 80. That makes 400 a week (they have no night shift and do not work over the weekend (is that right?). That results roughly in 1600 M a month and roughly 20'000 a year. And assuming that they do not reach the number of 80 per day but stay in the worse case down to 60 a day as it was a year ago, then this would be 25% less which would roughly result in 15'000 units a year. As a consequence the mentioned 10'000 are probably too low. Maybe 15 to 20'000 would be more accurate.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Alex U.

[LocalHero1953]

I had an Elmar 135 for a number of years with an M3 and M2. I didn't have too many problems focussing (I can't remember, but I suspect I stopped down a bit) but I really disliked the tiny view for framing. I was running a Pentax MX with a native 135mm at the same time, and the comparison in usability was painful for the Leica. I can't remember when I sold it either - probably a sign that it was little loved.

 

I don't doubt the IQ from the 135 ApoTelyt, but from a practical point of view I would now far rather use a CL with a 90mm (the Macro Elmar 90 would suit it well)

[wattsy]

I generally like Erwin Puts's blog (and find his philosophical musings more interesting than his lens evaluations) but think he's stretching things a bit here. I would imagine that Leica haven't built a batch of the 135/F3.4 for many years and have been running down factory stocks (either finished or part built) and now the cupboard is empty. I dare say they have done their sums and have concluded that recent demand for this lens doesn't justify building another batch. It may also be the case that the necessary personnel deployment and materials sourcing to produce another batch would necessitate a substantial price rise on this low demand lens, making it an uneconomic prospect. I don't think it indicates a lack of commitment to the M system, particularly in the light of the recent lens introductions and probable forthcoming 90/F1.5.

Edited May 4, 2018 by wattsy

[wizard]

Well, my own Telyt 135 is not up for sale any time soon, and if Leica decide they stop making that lens, then prices will likely go up for used copies in good condition. So nothing to worry about here. I have always used 135mm lenses on M-cameras since my first M3 in 1973, and never had focus problems. That said, the M3 is still the best M to use with a 135 lens (EVF on the digital Ms is probably as good).

 

Andy

Edited May 4, 2018 by wizard

[Gregm61]

The APO-Telyt was on my radar to purchase prior to year-end. No plans to change that. I would imagine new units will continue to be available for some time.

[Simon]

Does anyone have a nice moon shot from this lens they care to share?

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

I have to say I find it very unlikely that Leica will discontinue the M system. The M system dies, Leica dies.

 

Thats like saying Nikon will discontinue their F system just because they will come out with a full frame mirrorless soon. They would have to be incredibly stupid to do so.

 

 

There is also the possibility that the production is too expensive in relation to the numbers sold. Or maybe one of the optical glass types has been discontinued.

 

Are you sure ?

 

It is known that a small company and de-facto young company like the reopened Meyer-Görlitz indeed relies on others for their glas.

 

But for all I know Leica, Canon, Nikon etc all produce all their own glas. Canon for sure, at least, at least they say so in their advertisements.

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[Jeff S]

I have to say I find it very unlikely that Leica will discontinue the M system. The M system dies, Leica dies.

 

Thats like saying Nikon will discontinue their F system just because they will come out with a full frame mirrorless soon. They would have to be incredibly stupid to do so.

 

 

 

Are you sure ?

 

It is known that a small company and de-facto young company like the reopened Meyer-Görlitz indeed relies on others for their glas.

 

But for all I know Leica, Canon, Nikon etc all produce all their own glas. Canon for sure, at least, at least they say so in their advertisements.

Leica will direct other companies, if needed, to produce specific lens elements. The following interview with Peter Karbe explains the history of 50 Summilux ASPH, including these glass challenges...

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe-page-2

The fact that one lens element in the new version costs as much as the rest of the glass combined is noteworthy.

 

Here’s the first part of the interview... https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe

 

Jeff

Edited May 4, 2018 by Jeff S