Farewell to the 135 APO-Telyt-M

[Tailwagger]

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According to LR via Puts, the 135mm is history. If one reads the full text on his website, he paints a rather bleak picture for the M, though at least one fact he cites seem incorrect to me. My M10 certainly displays 135mm frame lines.   What say we post a few tribute photos.  A quick snap of my son across the living room.

 

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[pico]

The deletion of a 135mm lens is distressing when there is EVF. Some can argue that the focal length is practically beyond Leica's range finder design despite Leica's inclusion of frame lines for decades. There is likely an error in my presumptions. I look forward to corrections.

Edited May 3, 2018 by pico

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[onasj]

I’m about to shoot Game 2 of the NBA eastern conference semifinals with the 135... a bit confused why Leica would discontinue the lens given that it is the longest in the native M current lineup and it performs very well.

[Tailwagger]

I’m about to shoot Game 2 of the NBA eastern conference semifinals with the 135... a bit confused why Leica would discontinue the lens given that it is the longest in the native M current lineup and it performs very well.

 

...go green! 

[M11 for me]

. . . and there are the framelines for the 135mm in the OVF of our M cameras

[lct]

Sounds so stupid that i can't believe it. Any link to the source of this info?

[pico]

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Sounds so stupid that i can't believe it. Any link to the source of this info?

 

Rumor. See here.

Consider the source.

Edited May 3, 2018 by pico

[lct]

Ah yes thanks pico. Incredible. This superb lens works perfectly with EVFs and makes an outstanding 200/3.4 on the CL. Small, light, it is probably the best 135 i've ever used so far. Glad i got one before the M line becomes definitely retro.

[jaapv]

I have a feeling that Erwin has a point. Leica will not drop the M, it is their signature product, but I would not be surprised if it would become more and more of a niche product, with only just enough development to keep it viable. The move away from versatility by the M 10, as opposed to the technical development of the M 240 supports this impression. A rationalization of the lens portefolio would fit in this strategy.

There is the recent emphasis on the virtues of the L mount as well. I think Leica sees it as the future.

[jaapv]

The deletion of a 135mm lens is distressing when there is EVF. Some can argue that the focal length is practically beyond Leica's range finder design despite Leica's inclusion of frame lines for decades. There is likely an error in my presumptions. I look forward to corrections.

There is also the possibility that the production is too expensive in relation to the numbers sold. Or maybe one of the optical glass types has been discontinued.

[pico]

There is also the possibility that the production is too expensive in relation to the numbers sold. Or maybe one of the optical glass types has been discontinued.

 

Sure. A sign that EVF has failed? Let us make a contest of reasons to discontinue the lens. There are so many as rational as the above apology. Perhaps we should look forward to the discontinuation of the frame lines. We shall see.

 

IMHO, prospective M customers simply do no like a lens that sticks out, disturbing the compact, subtle profile of the M.

Edited May 3, 2018 by pico

[tsleica]

Maybe they are going to release an updated version..smaller...sharper..sexier...lol..

[rsolomon]

Maybe they are going to release an updated version..smaller...sharper..sexier...lol..

 

lets hope !

[Jeff S]

Rumor. See here.

Consider the source.

I do indeed consider the source. Their record has been near flawless since the M9 release. And for the Q, Leica even invited them to visit and explore the product in advance, which they accepted... https://leicarumors.com/2015/06/10/the-leica-q-typ-116-review-the-future-of-german-camera-engineering.aspx/

 

Jeff

[lct]

Maybe they are going to release an updated version..smaller...sharper..sexier...lol..

 

While there is life there is hope . I'd rather expect another bazooka lens for SL. The R 135/2.8 was not more bulky than the M 135/2.8 but the trend is towards monster lenses nowadays... Even R lenses look compact compared to those barbels. Is the Leica spirit gone forever?

[romualdo]

IMHO prospective M customers simply do no like a lens that sticks out, disturbing the compact, subtle profile of the M.

Edited May 4, 2018 by romualdo

[adan]

The bottom line is the bottom line.

 

It does not matter how "good" a product is - it only matters that it sells enough that it makes enough profit, at the price it can sell at. Or at the very least is a "killer app lens" that enhances sales and profits of cameras or other gear.

 

Leica 135's have always been on the bubble (subject to elimination). The 90TE "thin" was conceived in 1972 as a lens that, with a 1.5x converter, could replace the 135 lenses. The only thing that prevented the 135 going the way of the dinosaur 45 years ago was the 90 + 1.5x image quality was too poor. After that, Leica killed the M line altogether - until it was saved by a "cheap M" (the M4-2) as proposed by Leica Canada. Then, up until the APO-Telyt, Leica retained two M 135s - f/4 TE and f/2.8 Elmarit with goggles (Elmarit costs shared with an R version) - the f/3.4 APO was introduced to cut that back to one, itself a cost-saving measure.

 

As digital cameras took over, Leica has always warned that 135 lenses really push the capabilities of the RF with the roughly 0.7x viewfinders, and need to be stopped down to f/8 for use with digital resolution. Personally, I have found the M10 handles a 135 TE OK, but stick to f/5.6 or f/6.3 unless I really need f/4 (and then chimp the results to be sure).

 

For tailwagger's collection - a 135 APO-Telyt shot at Denver's Gay Pride March

 

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[Herr Barnack]

 

The bottom line is the bottom line.

 

It does not matter how "good" a product is - it only matters that it sells enough that it makes enough profit, at the price it can sell at.

 

Not to hijack the thread, but the above  makes me wonder about the future of the 75mm Noctilux.

 

Back to the 135 APO Telyt:  I hate to see any M lens go the way of the Dodo bird, even though preowned copies may be available from time to time.

 

Regarding the Erwin Puts article, he says -

 

"...The annual sales of between 10,000 and 20,000 is not enough to increase the revenue to the level that the company owners and managers want to generate..."

 

Is he referring to total sales of all Leica camera bodies and lenses as 10-20K?  Is he referring only to M camera bodies?  Or M bodies and lenses??

 

I doubt that the numbers he quotes are in reference to the number of 135 APO Telyt lenses sold.  If so, Leica would be barking mad to stop production of the lens

Edited May 4, 2018 by Herr Barnack

[adan]

M-camera bodies, I am sure. (And the 75 Noctilux may fall into the "killer app" category - people buy Leica M cameras just to get that lens - the marketplace will determine if that works or not.)

 

There was a time a few years ago (early M9 era) when I quit using any M 135 myself, and stuck to 90s - with a 180 APO-Telyt mounted on a Canon body. Focusing just too frustrating with an M/135. Ultimately I got tired of carrying two cameras and the extra weight, so it was nice to have the 135s (and eventually the M10) to fall back on, and I've been trying to stick with that (and a 75 f/2.4) ever since.

Edited May 4, 2018 by adan

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[jonatdonuts]

It's a difficult one. 

 

On one hand, Leica has just released their best digital M yet, which many of us would agree is an absolute winner due to its simplicity, size, and performance. Leica have also come out with a Noctilux 75, and possibly a 35mm and 90mm down the line. The commitment to the M system, therefore, is still quite strong. 

 

On the other hand, the M is essentially a manual rangefinder camera, which nowadays is a already a niche product, as it requires a very traditional technique that runs counter to the automation that technology offers today. 

 

I do not have the demographic figures, but I would suspect that the majority of M owners are the more 'experienced users' - those in their advanced years who have enjoyed shooting M's or manual cameras in the past, and want to continue doing so. I suspect that there are less and less young photographers picking up the M. Many of my fellow millennials who have tried the M find it interesting but also unintuitive, which is natural when you consider how the younger generation has been brought up with services and products such as cameras, cellphones, computers, smartwatches, that provide for immediate, automatic results. For us / them, why go manual when you can go automatic? Especially when technology has reached a level where automation can and does lead to accurate and consistent results? 

 

In this respect, it seems only natural that the M user base will continue to shrink. I am sure Leica's current leadership realises that the L mount will at some point have to become the 'cash cow'. However, I also trust that they will do its best to ensure that, no matter what, there is an M line of some sort on offer, if only to pay homage to their rich history. I for one would be very much appreciative of this. 

Edited May 4, 2018 by jonatdonuts