pico Posted April 22, 2018 Share #41 Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Ah, if we want a JPEG to have original rendering, we only need to post it to its appropriate size! That is regardless if anyone can view it. Cool. Your browser will resize the image below to fit. I am on a dog-slow internet and it works for me. http://www.digoliardi.net/toobig.jpg ...and that is about 5% original. Loads fast, no? (NOT in Safari!) Ian, I have only a Mac which has Safari which does display .TIFF files, But it performs poorly with large images. Edited April 22, 2018 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 Hi pico, Take a look here Disappointed with Leica jpegs. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted April 22, 2018 Share #42 Posted April 22, 2018 Backing up a bit - I think we can all understand that in-camera conversions to JPEG usually create images inferior to DNG. Right. So post-processing JPEG is a whole different thing. Lossless (or lossless enough) saving in post-processing retains the shortcomings of the in-camera compression. BUT we do not know what processing Leica does in-camera before storing as DNG. Look to the M9 maintenance menu for hints. Yeah, they do that. Lossless enough? Like slightly pregnant? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfheart Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share #43 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) I've had the same feelings regarding Fuji and Leica as the OP. I have shot the systems side by side on many occasions and never has any of my Leicas produced a jpeg as pleasant as what a Fuji does. Or Olympus. Or hasselblad. But the raw files are excellent. I have given up on Leica jpegs. The CL is a lot better. Play with the settings. You might get something you like a bit better. But they won't match the Fujis. Mostly I shoot raw only. But when I want a jpeg I'll often do so as a monochrome image, which are pretty good. I'll have the raw if I want a colour version. It's a shame that Leica do not put more effort into the jpegs. I think my biggest issue with them is the yellow cast that I notice on skintones that seem to appear only with mixed light, open shade or late direct sun. I do not see this cast in the raw files. I am going to have to change my workflow with the M10 I think. I have a weird legacy workflow where I will import into Apple photos then export the raws that I want to work on, open them in Camera raw and then reimport my completed jpeg back into photos. I think it's finally time to start using Lightroom so that I can create an import preset because my old workflow will become very slow now that I have to edit all my M10 raws Edited April 23, 2018 by Surfheart Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted April 23, 2018 Share #44 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) workflow will become very slow now that I have to edit all my M10 raws You only need to edit and post process the good ones, for a photographer critical of their own work that would be in the region of 3% (or less) of all the exposures made. And yes you should use Lightroom and learn more about how to adjust colour, which is especially easy in the comfort of your own home when you have a RAW file to work on. You've thrown the baby out with the bathwater by using JPEG in-camera, but by all means use a JPEG as reference alongside the RAW file. Colour balance and the technical quality of an image are all about the tolerances of the person who took the photograph, some are happy just to get a representation of the scene, some can see differences between how different camera's render a scene but don't know what to do about it, and some roll their sleeves up. It's a fact of life, and after a few years using Lightroom you'll probably not be satisfied with your Fuji JPEG's either. Edited April 23, 2018 by 250swb 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted April 23, 2018 Share #45 Posted April 23, 2018 I find the Leica jpg's quite neutral. In my mind, this is how they should be. Fuji put their trademark fingerprint on their jpg files. It depends whether you want to showcase that or not. Personally, I'd rather add my own interpretation & feel. With a little preset processing Leica jpg's improve significantly as a quick fix for online posting or for reference purposes but dng processing always gives the best results. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 23, 2018 Share #46 Posted April 23, 2018 Workflow shooting RAW can be quite fast. If you adjust one file and then use its settings to adjust all files similarly taken, then workflow can be quite fast and you still retain the benefits of shooting RAW files. FWIW I haven't shot JPEGs since I bought a Fuji S2Pro (~15= years ago). I've simply adjusted my workflow to suit. I see no point in using any immensely capable cameras but then having their abilities curtailed by producing files which lack versatility. IMO shooting JPEGs with any RAW file capable camera is like driving a sports car at 30mph - perfectly possible but pointless. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark II Posted April 23, 2018 Share #47 Posted April 23, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) You only need to edit and post process the good ones, for a photographer critical of their own work that would be in the region of 3% (or less) of all the exposures made.This more than anything. When I am not paying attention I can easily take 1000 pictures for a project that needs only 10. There is no useful purpose in editing (or keeping) every last picture. RAW editing should be very straightforward and quick. The keys are: 1) carefully choose which images are important 2) understand what your aesthetic aim is 3) learn how to quickly and effectively achieve that with your RAW software Most of the time, I find (1) by far the most painful and slowest part - particularly if I decided to take 20 pictures of the same thing “just in case” I got the focus or exposure slightly wrong. But that would be true no matter whether or not I shot JPEG or RAW. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frase Posted April 23, 2018 Share #48 Posted April 23, 2018 Being a newspaper photographer I shoot jpegs all the time except when using my M9 the jpegs sometimes turned out ok but generally not. Really nowadays as long as you computer is not too old the difference in processing jpegs v raws is not that much even more so on high end Canons and Nikons as unlike prosumer cameras the jpegs are not really processed by the camera that much so straight of camera they look pretty flat and lifeless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk-d Posted April 23, 2018 Share #49 Posted April 23, 2018 This more than anything. When I am not paying attention I can easily take 1000 pictures for a project that needs only 10. There is no useful purpose in editing (or keeping) every last picture. RAW editing should be very straightforward and quick. The keys are: 1) carefully choose which images are important 2) understand what your aesthetic aim is 3) learn how to quickly and effectively achieve that with your RAW software Most of the time, I find (1) by far the most painful and slowest part - particularly if I decided to take 20 pictures of the same thing “just in case” I got the focus or exposure slightly wrong. But that would be true no matter whether or not I shot JPEG or RAW. Editing content is more painstaking that editing image quality. For me, that is one of the major advantages of using a rangefinder - having to work harder to get the shot, forces me to really contemplate the shot. It's impossible to spray and pray without AF. With film this was even more so, but I've found similar benefits moving to a digital rangefinder. I prefer neutral imaging and detest a plastic, synthetic look. So far, I've found that Leica RAW images are very easy to work with and don't require much post-processing to get them right. Just a bit of sharpening. I suspect the lenses might have something to do with that. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonescapes Posted April 23, 2018 Share #50 Posted April 23, 2018 At this point in the evolution of digital image processing, not wanting to get into raw processing at all is a little like refusing to dodge or burn in the darkroom. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 23, 2018 Share #51 Posted April 23, 2018 I didn't realise that you could shoot jogs. I bought an M10 2 weeks ago. I've lusted after an M for a long time and it was a dream come true. The camera is physically beautiful, feels great in the hand and I'm really enjoying the challenges of true range finder photography and thinking more about my exposures without the crutch of an EVF. However, I have been very disappointed with the Leica Jpeg files from camera. Highlights are often blown (standard contrast) and the AWB is a mess. Yellow skin cast in open shade, yellow cast with strong late sun, poor handling of mixed light. Now I know I have the raw files but I have been shooting with Fuji cameras since I stared my photographic journey about 3 years ago and I know at this point "Fuji jpegs!" is a bit of an internet meme, but I find that unless I'm doing landscapes where I have huge dynamic range, the Fuji jpegs are fantastic. Sharp, contrasty without blocking shadows or blowing highlights, and normally the camera will nail white balance even under the craziest mixed lighting. I've been finding it tedious with the M10 to have to edit nearly every single file to correct colour or recover blown highlights and even just to give the images some punch because they come out looking so flat. I really dislike spending time editing unless it's for a landscape piece. I was shooting with both the Fuji and M10 today, and the out of camera jpegs from the Fuji blew the M10's out of the water in every single shot. As you can see in the attached crops straight from camera, the highlights have far more information on the fuji and micro contrast seems superior At this point I'm wondering why I spent nearly $13,000AUD (Body and 50 Cron) Here, I fixed it for you. "At this point I'm wondering why I spent nearly $13,000 (Body and Cron) to shoot jpgs" 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2018 Share #52 Posted April 23, 2018 At this point in the evolution of digital image processing, not wanting to get into raw processing at all is a little like refusing to dodge or burn in the darkroom. Especially if you use Lightroom. You really need to check whether the file is raw or jpg, processing is identical. The results, unfortunaly, are not identical. The raw image will mostly be superior. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonescapes Posted April 23, 2018 Share #53 Posted April 23, 2018 Especially if your camera is shooting DNG. I know DNG isn't the head-and-shoulders advantage over other formats it once was, but it nonetheless presents an extremely smooth and predictable processing response from the sliders when you're working in Lightroom. It's basically the only raw format I still use Adobe for. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2018 Share #54 Posted April 23, 2018 The raw-is-difficult hype stems from the time that Photoshop was the norm, and do you have to go through ACR to access it when shooting raw. However, now that ACR is very close to Lightroom in its possibilities, at least as capable as "quick develop" (and a bit more), and the step to Photoshop is more used for special development, even that distinction has faded. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrewer Posted April 23, 2018 Share #55 Posted April 23, 2018 I don't bother to even shoot jpegs anymore with the M10 Just process it all as a DNG and be done with it 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobert Posted April 23, 2018 Share #56 Posted April 23, 2018 The raw-is-difficult hype stems from the time that Photoshop was the norm, and do you have to go through ACR to access it when shooting raw. However, now that ACR is very close to Lightroom in its possibilities, at least as capable as "quick develop" (and a bit more), and the step to Photoshop is more used for special development, even that distinction has faded. There are even non-adobe users who are shooting raw.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted April 23, 2018 Share #57 Posted April 23, 2018 I don't bother to even shoot jpegs anymore with the M10 Just process it all as a DNG and be done with it Thats the way to go! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2018 Share #58 Posted April 23, 2018 There are even non-adobe users who are shooting raw.... Quite - the times, they are a-changin'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted April 23, 2018 Share #59 Posted April 23, 2018 Funny how folks sensibilities differ. To my eye in the comparison shot, the Fuji output looks over saturated and frankly lacks subtlety. But then when I was shooting Fuji's a few years back, I wasn't overly fond of their SOOC rendering either. I feel compelled to remark that whenever this SOOC topic rears its ugly head, as it does so often, I scratch my head a little. I find it quite odd that there is a class of people that consider themselves serious photographers who somehow fail to accept that there's work on the backend, let alone that all too often its the most important aspect for producing an acceptable final result. Shooting is farming, processing is cooking. Great ingredients don't ensure a memorable meal, if the chef is unwilling. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 23, 2018 Share #60 Posted April 23, 2018 Nothing has changed in the last 150 years. The image is made in the dark/lightroom, from the raw material provided by the camera... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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