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If Leica release a TL3, they need to add phase detect focus, an articulating screen, and more lenses.

 

At the very least they should bring the AF of the TL-line on par with the AF of the CL which is very good.  

 

About the lenses, I am awaiting the June 14th announcements and the Photokina announcements.  Hopefully there is something there...  

Edited by JorisV

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CL andd SL do not have phase detect focus, and its focus is quite good. Adding phase detect would be a bonus, but not essentially required. The immediately desired are the built in EVF and AF to match CL.

 

It would not be SL capable with TL outlook, if that is what you are looking for.

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Tl2 in black listed as closeout on the Adorama website. Silver option unchanged.

 

That might mean color update or could be a mistake.

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TL3 will be some time away yet.

 

I can’t imagine why Leica would discontinue the TL. They have been clear they are committed to the L mount, and while many here are enamoured by the CL (primarily due to its physical similarity to the M and Q cameras, apparently), the argument that one is better than the other is very thin. I think the TL is better functionally, but that’s just opinion. I dislike the ‘retro’ design approach of the CL - when I first saw it, I thought ‘meh’ and that opinion hasn’t really changed.

 

The body of the TL is cnc milled - quick and cheap to produce. Sales will determine its future, and the extent to which Leica can introduce innovation to this camera. Even if the some of the CL fanboys and speculators here are right (which I sincerely doubt) and the TL isn’t selling, that does not necesarily mean that Leica will not continue its commitment to the camera.

 

Only Leica knows the real sales figures, and it is their product strategy - comment on here is based on ... not much.

Edited by IkarusJohn

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I think it's safe to say there is the Leica APS-C System .

What's next ? ; no one but Leica knows what the L it will be .

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Very true, and given how good ASPC is nowadays, it is scary to think what the next generation sensor will be capable of. 

 

I do feel the TL system is lacking in the lens department, however. It's missing a 23mm 1.4 prime and a equivalent 24-70mm (or thereabouts) constant 2.8. The current 18-56mm zoom aperture is glacial by Leica's standards.

 

In regards to the CL styling, I was also a little surprised. The look and operation of the X series with the engraved top dials would have been perfect for that type of camera. So simple, straight forward, and effortlessly intuitive. 

 

TL3 will be some time away yet.

I can’t imagine why Leica would discontinue the TL. They have been clear they are committed to the L mount, and while many here are enamoured by the CL (primarily due to its physical similarity to the M and Q cameras, apparently), the argument that one is better than the other is very thin. I think the TL is better functionally, but that’s just opinion. I dislike the ‘retro’ design approach of the CL - when I first saw it, I thought ‘meh’ and that opinion hasn’t really changed.

The body of the TL is cnc milled - quick and cheap to produce. Sales will determine its future, and the extent to which Leica can introduce innovation to this camera. Even if the some of the CL fanboys and speculators here are right (which I sincerely doubt) and the TL isn’t selling, that does not necesarily mean that Leica will not continue its commitment to the camera.

Only Leica knows the real sales figures, and it is their product strategy - comment on here is based on ... not muc

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I liked the T, really fun to use, especially in combination with an M or MM. The only issue really for me was the sensor size - I find APS-C simply too small for adapting lenses in the long run.
APS-H format would have been sweet. I think I am the very few who think that way, but an 1.3 crop is a good compromise for cost/weight/IQ, and takes just enough care of bad corners in some lenses, without cutting too much away. My favourite lenses are 21mm and 35mm, and they just loose too much on APS-C.
Just my 2 cents.
 

Edited by Peter_S

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Does it make sense to continue making and marketing two cameras with essentially the same sensor and functions, for the limited Leica ICL APS-C market that Leica wants to satisfy … especially when a TL3 would require a much better VISO? The existing VISO is very old technology.  Accessory Viso finders are 'old hat'. If there is/was a TL3 in development it would likely have been developed at the same time as the CL … which seems very unlikely … because the TL2 was only a few months ahead of the CL.

 

If there is nothing announced at Photokina the future of the TL series looks bleak. Leica are hardly likely to develop a TL3 with upgraded sensor and VISO to suit it,  unless a CL-2 with upgraded sensor is also marketed … and a CL-2 would likely have much higher priority. A TL-3 with existing sensor and existing VISO makes no sense at all.

 

 

dunk

Edited by dkCambridgeshire

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The CL certainly seems to have kicked life into the APS-C system.

The built in EVF seems to have made all the difference in that camera’s reception.

But compared to the careful sculpting and deep concept thinking of the T .. TL2 , the CL seems like a thrown together project.

 

The TL2+ still seems it should be the basis for new hardware design and UI evolution, but the lack of EVF must now be seen as a fatal Achilles heel. To go forward with a design effort to sympathetically craft one into the TL3 seems like a do or die decision.

 

In part I bought the TL2 after the CL launch as I thought it might be end of line : a uniquely engineered camera.

 

More lenses would be good : for now I’m sticking with adapted M lenses as the CA on the 23mm left me dissapointed.

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Does it make sense to continue making and marketing two cameras with essentially the same sensor and functions, for the limited Leica ICL APS-C market that Leica wants to satisfy … especially when a TL3 would require a much better VISO? The existing VISO is very old technology.  Accessory Viso finders are 'old hat'. If there is/was a TL3 in development it would likely have been developed at the same time as the CL … which seems very unlikely … because the TL2 was only a few months ahead of the CL.

 

If there is nothing announced at Photokina the future of the TL series looks bleak. Leica are hardly likely to develop a TL3 with upgraded sensor and VISO to suit it,  unless a CL-2 with upgraded sensor is also marketed … and a CL-2 would likely have much higher priority. A TL-3 with existing sensor and existing VISO makes no sense at all.

 

 

dunk

 

 A few thoughts:

 

Would you not think that Leica would have an interest in perfecting a new visoflex for the M line?

 

I presume Leica developed the TL2 parallel to the CL line; the CL was announced only a few months after the TL2, so that might be indicative that the TL3 may still be in development.

 

(I'm still hoping they'll develop a built in EVF for the TL3.

)

 

Regards,

Rob

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I like the removable, tiltable EVF on the TL2. Perhaps that puts me in a minority who thought the CL was a “thrown together” camera for those who found the TL a technology step too far.

 

If Leica discontinues the TL, I’ll happily keep using mine til it dies. I think it’s a great camera, where the CL has no real advantage (tech or otherwise) and the design more than a bit uninspiring. More critically, I don’t understand why the forum is so keen to predict the death of cameras, where Leica is clearly committed to systems - in this came, the L mount. The TL is an all aluminium bodied camera, made by CNC - compared to M bodies, and I’d bet the CL, the camera body is cheap as chips to produce; Leica already sources an EVF used on both the TL and the M10 (good enough, and way better than the previous one); and I’d have thought many of the electronics are common between the CL & TL.

 

What is more interesting is that the user interface is significantly different. I think Leica has the TL2 right (after a false start) - why would it abandon a future focused camera for one which is so backward looking? I’m probably wrong, as usual, but I will remain a happy TL2 user.

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Surely the point is being missed totally.....it’s the T system lenses that are the revelation, not the other way around, in the sense that the discussion is always going on about what T system camera improvement is in the pipeline, so people can buy M, Zeiss or Voigtlander lenses to put on ?

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I like the removable, tiltable EVF on the TL2. Perhaps that puts me in a minority who thought the CL was a “thrown together” camera for those who found the TL a technology step too far.

 

If Leica discontinues the TL, I’ll happily keep using mine til it dies. I think it’s a great camera, where the CL has no real advantage (tech or otherwise) and the design more than a bit uninspiring. More critically, I don’t understand why the forum is so keen to predict the death of cameras, where Leica is clearly committed to systems - in this came, the L mount. The TL is an all aluminium bodied camera, made by CNC - compared to M bodies, and I’d bet the CL, the camera body is cheap as chips to produce; Leica already sources an EVF used on both the TL and the M10 (good enough, and way better than the previous one); and I’d have thought many of the electronics are common between the CL & TL.

 

What is more interesting is that the user interface is significantly different. I think Leica has the TL2 right (after a false start) - why would it abandon a future focused camera for one which is so backward looking? I’m probably wrong, as usual, but I will remain a happy TL2 user.

 

 

Leica likely have an M10 successor in development which may or may not require a new Viso … but assuming a 3 yearly new M digital cycle this would be due in late 2019 / early 2020 

 

I'm under the impression the CL was developed to answer the criticisms voiced about the T/TL series i.e.  as an alternative and more traditional camera with more sales appeal … and it appears to be more appealing and outselling the TL series partly because it has a built-in EVF.  I'd be very surprised if there was a TL3 given the success of the CL. Would make more sense to develop a CL-2 than a TL3.  And a TL3 with built-in EVF would have a 'bump' … which would make it look odd compared to the TL/TL2. 

 

We'll know more, or can maybe second guess more, when Leica makes its inevitable Photokina announcements 

 

 

dunk 

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Leica likely have an M10 successor in development which may or may not require a new Viso … but assuming a 3 yearly new M digital cycle this would be due in late 2019 / early 2020 

 

I'm under the impression the CL was developed to answer the criticisms voiced about the T/TL series i.e.  as an alternative and more traditional camera with more sales appeal … and it appears to be more appealing and outselling the TL series partly because it has a built-in EVF.  I'd be very surprised if there was a TL3 given the success of the CL. Would make more sense to develop a CL-2 than a TL3.  And a TL3 with built-in EVF would have a 'bump' … which would make it look odd compared to the TL/TL2. 

 

We'll know more, or can maybe second guess more, when Leica makes its inevitable Photokina announcements 

 

 

dunk 

 

I do not pretend to know anything about camera design, but if the Leica D Lux and CL can accommodate built in viewfinders I would think Leica could design one for the TL line which did not change its aesthetic appeal.  (Or, maybe just a better external visoflex could be in the works).

 

It was my impression that the TL was mean to appeal to those who wanted a user interface like a cell phone.  

 

I suppose it is fun to speculate. We shall see.

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I do not pretend to know anything about camera design, but if the Leica D Lux and CL can accommodate built in viewfinders I would think Leica could design one for the TL line which did not change its aesthetic appeal.  (Or, maybe just a better external visoflex could be in the works).

 

It was my impression that the TL was mean to appeal to those who wanted a user interface like a cell phone.  

 

I suppose it is fun to speculate. We shall see.

 

 

Leica would have to request Epson to design an updated EVF … it's Seiko-Epson technology … not Leica technology … regardless of whether it's a separate add-on Viso or built-in EVF.  

 

dunk 

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I share the same thoughts on the CL. Aesthetically it's a little strange, and the multi-functional unmarked top dials are too finicky to my tastes. If they had gone full iiig on the design, or if they had just kept the X1 body with simple marked dials and built in EVF, it would have been more appealing. But that's just me - I believe the CL is selling well regardless. 

 

TL3 is a difficult one. Most of us here would want a built in viewfinder, but then again it was designed for those who are more accustomed to using cellphones, hence the beautiful button-less touchscreen on the back. It's as if the TL's original concept is restricting its potential to develop into a 'real / serious' camera. Would love it if they did bring out a TL3 with viewfinder though. It would be more appealing to me than the CL.

 

Arguably the biggest problem, however, is not the two bodies, which are generally very capable APSC cameras, but the sparse lens selection. The quality may be there but the range definitely isn't. A 23mm 1.4 and 16mm-46mm 2.8 constant would do very nicely.  

 

I like the removable, tiltable EVF on the TL2. Perhaps that puts me in a minority who thought the CL was a “thrown together” camera for those who found the TL a technology step too far.

If Leica discontinues the TL, I’ll happily keep using mine til it dies. I think it’s a great camera, where the CL has no real advantage (tech or otherwise) and the design more than a bit uninspiring. More critically, I don’t understand why the forum is so keen to predict the death of cameras, where Leica is clearly committed to systems - in this came, the L mount. The TL is an all aluminium bodied camera, made by CNC - compared to M bodies, and I’d bet the CL, the camera body is cheap as chips to produce; Leica already sources an EVF used on both the TL and the M10 (good enough, and way better than the previous one); and I’d have thought many of the electronics are common between the CL & TL.

What is more interesting is that the user interface is significantly different. I think Leica has the TL2 right (after a false start) - why would it abandon a future focused camera for one which is so backward looking? I’m probably wrong, as usual, but I will remain a happy TL2 user.

Edited by jonatdonuts

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When the TL2 was released, I asked Leica about the EVF - they responded that the SL viewfinder was just too big for the M10, CL and TL2.  So, for current technology, the EVF(020) is good as good as it gets for the TL2 and for the M10.  I like having the choice of removing the EVF (the LCD is bigger, brighter and all round better than the smaller one on the CL), and the ability to tilt the EVF up on the TL2 is a winner for me (and loser for the CL, among other things).  I really don't understand why Leica shouldn't produce two such very different versions of their APS-C L mount camera - they are committed to the L mount, and have also said that APS-C is a good place to be.

 

Doubtless Leica will have access to a better EVF for the M11 and TL3 - probably still not as good as the SL, but better.  For myself, I'm happy enough with what I have.  I certainly wouldn't consider upgrading for the sake of it.

 

As for sales comments, you may all be right that the CL is outselling the TL2 - I'd love to know what that belief is based on as Leica is not very forthcoming on its sales figures.  I hope it is based on more than your happiness with your own camera choices.  Much like the statements of technical superiority of the CL camera over the TL2, such opinions appear to have been based on little more than wishful thinking (don't take it personally - it's just an observation).

 

Ultimately, Leica is confident (stubborn?) enough to continue with sales and marketing strategies regardless of sales figures and the commentariat.  If they sell enough to make a profit, or to justify a marketing strategy, they will continue to produce cameras.  

 

Cheers

John

Edited by IkarusJohn

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As for sales comments, you may all be right that the CL is outselling the TL2 - I'd love to know what that belief is based on as Leica is not very forthcoming on its sales figures.  I hope it is based on more than your happiness with your own camera choices.  Much like the statements of technical superiority of the CL camera over the TL2, such opinions appear to have been based on little more than wishful thinking (don't take it personally - it's just an observation).

 

 

 

I would think that one could conclude that the sales of the CL are much more robust than the T/TL2 simply based on the respective number of photos posted on each of the competing Leica Forum sites.

Rob

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I would think that one could conclude that the sales of the CL are much more robust than the T/TL2 simply based on the respective number of photos posted on each of the competing Leica Forum sites.

Rob

 

 

It's a fact that Leica Forum members who could never bond or contemplate bonding with with the T/TL/TL2, had little or no hesitation in buying the CL … and in general welcomed and praised the camera.  It's also a fact that Adorama, a major Leica dealer in the USA, shows the TL2 black version as 'closeout' stock. Maybe there is a TL3 on the horizon - hence the 'closeout' - but there have been no hints of a TL series successor. I liked the TL2 but give up with both my examples because they were both too unreliable when using non-TL lenses -  both the original TL2 and its replacement were sent back to Leica.  I have not yet bought a CL because of the very disappointing experience with two TL2s. I still use my T with the 11-16mm and will likely wait until I'm absolutely sure about the future of Leica ICL APS-C cameras before upgrading again … which likely means waiting for the CL-2 … but that's just me … Twice bitten by the TL2 thus still shy about a 'new' CL … but watching developments and rumours carefully … and weighing up in which direction the TL/CL series is headed. It's early days and the only certainty is that Leica is continuing with APS-C ICL cameras … but seems to be at a crossroads. And I'm still wondering exactly what Dr Kaufmann was hinting at ref the TL line when interviewed by Kevin Raber in 2017.  I'm also aware that there are major 'mirrorless' developments to be officially announced by Canon and Nikon and that they, in common with Leica, likely depend on third party EVF technology. Photokina is going to be very interesting.  

 

dunk 

Edited by dkCambridgeshire

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