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Somehow, the idea that my camera with an interchangeable lens system will somehow morph into also being my phone and mobile computer with apps, games, and such.....Ick. I love the TL design, but don’t want it to do more than be a camera. At most, maybe a photo editing software app built in. But my phone too? Nope.

But I never use my phone as a phone - or hardly ever.

I might as well use it as a camera from where I can send pictures to friends and family, directly or on social media.

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................................................ I can see CL and TL represent different user interface: a classical one (CL), and a fashionable one (TL). ............................

Value-laden terms!

I seem them as the camera club model (CL) and the model for the future (TL2) 

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Only SL, M10, amd TL are shown in this video. No CL, no Q, no X.

He mentioned the compact cameras are declining, this may explain why Q and X did not show up.

He mentioned the oomportance of TL, so it ruled out to substitue TL with CL.

But, is CL just a temperary solution for the up coming TL with EVF?

 

He mentioned it takes multiple solutions to satisfy the wide range of customers. I can see CL and TL represent different user interface: a classical one (CL), and a fashionable one (TL). Otherwise, there is no other functionality difference that CL can do but TL cant, or vise versa. But will it really make a stronger Leica to have both TL3 with EVF and CL2 instead of only TL3? I assume consolidate TL and CL into one unified line would reduce the cost.

 

 

The LuLa videos (plural) were made several months prior to the release of the CL … the other LuLa videos cover other Leica models 

 

dunk 

Edited by dkCambridgeshire

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But I never use my phone as a phone - or hardly ever.

I might as well use it as a camera from where I can send pictures to friends and family, directly or on social media.

So, your gonna use the lens to hold onto it, like a handle, while doing email, playing Candy Crush and Tweeting....

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Who need a camera when you have a smart phone, with AI and AR?

 

You point your phone to the object and click..the GPS will know where you are and what are on your view, it will pull out the data base to produce the picture you want.

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I can just picture the scene - TL3 with 35 Summilux-TL or any one of the zooms (even the pancake 18), with EVF on top (it is a camera, right?). It rings, and you hold your camera up to your ear - very realistic. Or you have headphones permanently plugged into your camera to answer calls.

 

My phone deals with data and calls. I have unlimited calls Aus & NZ, unlimited texts and data I don’t use. I’m not getting another SIM card for my camera - I use that for taking pictures.

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How about a new Visoflex with the SL's evf and an integrated thumbs-up and a hot shoe?

Maybe this time they could put the strap lugs and matte screen protector in the box too. 

 

If it helps, they can keep the keep the 3 month adobe membership. They can keep the rubber strap too, its great for shooting up but I should be quitting that stuff anyways.

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I like the TL design much more then the CL

 

The CL was necessary as the Leica base and potential customers find this traditional design better

 

I was frankly surprised that Leica came out with the TL2. IMHO it means that Leica wants to continue to develop this design and sees a future for it.

Whether the sales support this is another thing

 

The TL2 IMHO is Leica's coolest, most innovative and nicest to use camera outside the M series

 

I wish it a long and safe future

 

Now, where is the 23mm f1.4, 18-56 f2.8, 18mm f1.4 and 50 mm f1.4

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I like the TL design much more then the CL

 

The CL was necessary as the Leica base and potential customers find this traditional design better

 

I was frankly surprised that Leica came out with the TL2. IMHO it means that Leica wants to continue to develop this design and sees a future for it.

Whether the sales support this is another thing

 

The TL2 IMHO is Leica's coolest, most innovative and nicest to use camera outside the M series

 

I wish it a long and safe future

 

Now, where is the 23mm f1.4, 18-56 f2.8, 18mm f1.4 and 50 mm f1.4

 

That would invigorate interest!  

(Also, CL sales would flourish, but it might put a big dent in SL sales).

 

FWIW, I have used SL lenses on the T/CL and they are superb, though large.

Edited by ropo54

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I like the TL design much more then the CL

 

The CL was necessary as the Leica base and potential customers find this traditional design better

 

I was frankly surprised that Leica came out with the TL2. IMHO it means that Leica wants to continue to develop this design and sees a future for it.

Whether the sales support this is another thing

 

The TL2 IMHO is Leica's coolest, most innovative and nicest to use camera outside the M series

 

I wish it a long and safe future

 

Now, where is the 23mm f1.4, 18-56 f2.8, 18mm f1.4 and 50 mm f1.4

 

If not already in the pipeline, at least 2 years away … but 18-56 f2.8 unlikely as would be enormous 

 

dunk 

Edited by dkCambridgeshire

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If not already in the pipeline, at least 2 years away … but 18-56 f2.8 unlikely as would be enormous 

 

dunk 

 

The Fuji 16-55mm f2.8 is big but very useful to have around

Perhaps I will do a poll for next TL lens ...

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Those lenses are exactly what the TL / CL line needs, not necessarily another APSC camera. Especially the 18-56mm 2.8 (constant). I'm sure its size will be offset by its popularity. I have been thinking about the TL2 for a long time, but will not be taking the plunge until a more impressive zoom is out. 

 

 

 

That would invigorate interest!  

(Also, CL sales would flourish, but it might put a big dent in SL sales).

 

FWIW, I have used SL lenses on the T/CL and they are superb, though large.

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Guest VVJ

That would invigorate interest!  

(Also, CL sales would flourish, but it might put a big dent in SL sales).

 

Rob,

 

I have trying to make sense of this but I honestly can't...

 

Perhaps the strategy is indeed to make the TL2/CL systems good enough so that people will buy them but not too good nor too complete so that people would not get tempted to dump their SL or M kits...

 

On the one hand you have Leica releasing 2 new APS- C cameras in 4 months and you have statements from (now ex) CEOs that the TL-line will be the shining star...

 

On the other hand you have Leica on average only releasing 1 lens per year... and totally not capitalizing on the relative success of the CL or even attempting to keep some momentum going...

 

I very honestly don't get it...

 

The APS-C mount has IMO a lot of potential, probably more than the Leica SL.  With regards to image quality, size/weight and cost it is (again IMO) a much better compromise than the Leica SL.

 

But Leica somehow does not seem to (want to) go for it....

 

Joris.  

Edited by JorisV

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I think many of us feel the same way. Their lens division has probably been focussed on getting the SL range out, which is arguably somewhat more of a priority since it has been briefed as the 'professional can do all' camera in Leica's portfolio. As a result, the APSC lens line hasn't received as much attention as they would have liked. 

 

This is demonstrated by the new range of SL lenses that have been recently released, which seem to be of excellent quality and contribute to a more mature system. While Leica may argue that the SL lenses will also fit the TL/CL cameras, and that the lens lineup is, therefore, more expansive than initially thought, the fact remains that the SL lenses are massive in regards to their size, weight, and above all, price. 

 

SL aside, Leica's strength has traditionally been their diminutive size vis-a-vis their breadth of quality lenses, so it seems unlikely that they would continue falling short on the APSC lens lineup for too long. If we see a few fast zooms and summilux primes released later this year (June 14?), that by itself would announce that Leica are firmly back in the APSC game. 

 

Fingers crossed for a 24-70 /2.8 zoom...

 

Rob,

 

I have trying to make sense of this but I honestly can't...

 

Perhaps the strategy is indeed to make the TL2/CL systems good enough so that people will buy them but not too good nor too complete so that people would not get tempted to dump their SL or M kits...

 

On the one hand you have Leica releasing 2 new APS- C cameras in 4 months and you have statements from (now ex) CEOs that the TL-line will be the shining star...

 

On the other hand you have Leica on average only releasing 1 lens per year... and totally not capitalizing on the relative success of the CL or even attempting to keep some momentum going...

 

I very honestly don't get it...

 

The APS-C mount has IMO a lot of potential, probably more than the Leica SL.  With regards to image quality, size/weight and cost it is (again IMO) a much better compromise than the Leica SL.

 

But Leica somehow does not seem to (want to) go for it....

 

Joris.  

Edited by jonatdonuts

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But I never use my phone as a phone - or hardly ever.

I might as well use it as a camera from where I can send pictures to friends and family, directly or on social media.

And I’ll never use my camera as a phone, or my HDR player as a phone or my car as a phone

 

Samsung tried merging them and look what happened to its cameras business

 

The average person wants a generalist, the enthusiast wants a specialist

 

Thus it has always been and will always be

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And I’ll never use my camera as a phone, or my HDR player as a phone or my car as a phone

 

Samsung tried merging them and look what happened to its cameras business

 

The average person wants a generalist, the enthusiast wants a specialist

 

Thus it has always been and will always be

Hmmm.......there are plenty of enthusiast phone photographers out there.

And at different times I am an enthusiast and a generalist.

I admire the confidence of your last line.

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Hmmm.......there are plenty of enthusiast phone photographers out there.

And at different times I am an enthusiast and a generalist.

I admire the confidence of your last line.

 

the line is where someone wants it to be

if they are happy with their phone camera they will not seek another camera

perhaps when they make an iphone which takes 35mm film I will happy

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the line is where someone wants it to be

if they are happy with their phone camera they will not seek another camera

perhaps when they make an iphone which takes 35mm film I will happy

My point was that there are plenty of easily identifiable enthusiasts (and professionals) who will happily use a generalist phone - a quick google produces a list too long to give here. Even if one could draw the line somewhere, I think you'd find it didn't match a line between phone users and 'real' camera users. Even a line that separated film users from the rest wouldn't work, I suspect!

 

The opposite may be true, though: non-enthusiast photographers may never look beyond a phone camera.

 

I write in total ignorance of the facts, but Samsung's exit from the camera market seems to have coincided with their rise to dominate the android camera/cameraphone market, which is probably far more lucrative for them. They were a bit player in cameras, but their phone camera technology looks fairly impressive now (I've never used one, so I can't answer for how well it works in reality).

Edited by LocalHero1953

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A lot of reviewers talk about how the TL2 is the camera that Apple would have designed, and while the industrial design is beautiful and feels like something designed in Cupertino, there is nothing Apple-like about this camera. The camera focuses poorly, face detect barely works, OOC jpegs lack range and you need to shoot RAW to get decent photos, features like remote shutter via the app hardly every works, and I could go on... 

 

Recently I took a trip to Iceland and I brought with me my TL2, 11-23, 23 summicron-t, 35mm summilux-t, and my iPhone X. I only wanted to use the TL2 because so I could take the best photos possible, the TL2 however was cold, often got in my way while hiking and exploring the ice caves, it often missed focused, and it proved to be burdensome. Instead, I found that I was reaching for my phone for photos most of the time.

 

With my iPhone I had live photos that help tell the story, high dynamic range is on by default and rather than yielding  cartoonish images, they were more true to life, GPS data included, quick access to pano mode, and amazing video, not to mention, it never got in my way. My big reason from bringing the TL2 is that I wanted some nice big print, well I was able to make 12x19 prints from adorama that look amazing. 

 

In the end, I still have my TL2. I want to see what gets announced in June, but it's a love hate relationship, and I find myself in the later camp. I've been messing around my M4-2 a lot recently, and might settle on an iPhone \ film combo, but we'll see. If Leica release a TL3, they need to add phase detect focus, an articulating screen, and more lenses.

 

Here are some of those iPhone X shots, sorry for the link but for the life of me I can't figure out how to link them here without exporting a tiny copy:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/61759222@N03/shares/5jk42Z

Edited by michaelbogdan

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