Focusing and Presbyopia

[Jeff S]

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If you are corrected to 20/20 for infinity, ask your optometrist how much + correction is required for virtual 3 feet. Get a plus correction to match. or use the readers from the drug store as samples and order correction to match.

 

 

Focus patch is set at virtual distance of 2m, or roughly 6 feet.

 

Jeff

[pico]

Focus patch is set at virtual distance of 2m, or roughly 6 feet.

 

So what does that mean for the novice? Some might think it is the only accurate focus distance, which it is not.

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[david.kize]

I am getting ready to buy an M10, and I have all the vision problems referred to in this thread, including near-sighted (20/800 in left eye, 20/500 in right, astigmatism, cataracts, macular tears), and increasing difficulty reading.  My eyes and left knee know my real age, and the rest of my body thinks that I am still 25.  For 25 years or so, starting around 1953, I used a Kodak rangefinder.  Going back to the Leica RF will be an exercise in nostalgia.  I took out my old Kodak from the closet and looked through the eyepiece.  Terrible.  I thought it was accumulated oils, dirt, aging of any plastic parts, and, in short, that it was the camera and not me.

 

Arghhh.

 

So, I am impatient (having already waited 50 years for a Leica), do not know where to rent or borrow a Leica in Houston or Austin, and won't be in New York (for a trip to B&H) until around May 8.  If I am rational, I will stop my plan to order an M10 online today, and wait to try one out at B&H in May.  But prices go up on May 1.

 

Maybe I will roll the dice ...  On my Nikon D800 and D500 cameras, I have no problem with the viewfinder if I use eyeglasses, or, better yet, if I am wearing my contacts.  Both correct my vision to around 20/25 or so.

[coupdefoudre]

Unheard of in my largely lutheropia neighborhood.

And here I heard you had catholic tastes!

[coupdefoudre]

Kize: "So, I am impatient (having already waited 50 years for a Leica), do not know where to rent or borrow a Leica in Houston or Austin, and won't be in New York (for a trip to B&H) until around May 8.  If I am rational, I will stop my plan to order an M10 online today, and wait to try one out at B&H in May.  But prices go up on May 1."

 

___

There must be a camera club of some sort in Houston or Austin. If you inquire I am certain someone would let you take a look at their M10. Take your own SD card and try a few shots. If you get good results you will have saved $300 from the Price increase on May 1.

[Jeff S]

So what does that mean for the novice? Some might think it is the only accurate focus distance, which it is not.

So why don’t you clarify for them rather than tease with your wisdom?

 

I think a helpful starting point is to be able to see the focus patch clearly. The manual covers the basics.

 

The FAQ covers more....

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/page-1?do=findComment&comment=2464049

 

But the best understanding comes from actual trial, which is why I recommend to those with imperfect vision an initial visit to an optician with camera in hand. Ideally one wants to be able to clearly see the focus patch as well as subjects at all distances. Corrections, if needed, can come in a variety of ways, depending not just on user’s eye conditions, but on viewing preferences and comfort levels. Even M viewfinders differ in magnification, eye relief, etc, but the focus patch virtual distance is set. The numbers don’t tell everything..... but they’re a necessary start... at least for the optician.

 

Jeff

[Astropap]

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I am getting ready to buy an M10, and I have all the vision problems referred to in this thread, including near-sighted (20/800 in left eye, 20/500 in right, astigmatism, cataracts, macular tears), and increasing difficulty reading.  My eyes and left knee know my real age, and the rest of my body thinks that I am still 25.  For 25 years or so, starting around 1953, I used a Kodak rangefinder.  Going back to the Leica RF will be an exercise in nostalgia.  I took out my old Kodak from the closet and looked through the eyepiece.  Terrible.  I thought it was accumulated oils, dirt, aging of any plastic parts, and, in short, that it was the camera and not me.

 

Arghhh.

 

So, I am impatient (having already waited 50 years for a Leica), do not know where to rent or borrow a Leica in Houston or Austin, and won't be in New York (for a trip to B&H) until around May 8.  If I am rational, I will stop my plan to order an M10 online today, and wait to try one out at B&H in May.  But prices go up on May 1.

 

Maybe I will roll the dice ...  On my Nikon D800 and D500 cameras, I have no problem with the viewfinder if I use eyeglasses, or, better yet, if I am wearing my contacts.  Both correct my vision to around 20/25 or so.

 

I had made arrangements to rent the M10 and a Zeiss 35mm lens from Lensrentals.com.  Not inexpensive but they have several different M models available along with M-mount lenses from Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander.  

[Astropap]

So why don’t you clarify for them rather than tease with your wisdom?

 

I think a helpful starting point is to be able to see the focus patch clearly. The manual covers the basics.

 

The FAQ covers more....

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/page-1?do=findComment&comment=2464049

 

But the best understanding comes from actual trial, which is why I recommend to those with imperfect vision an initial visit to an optician with camera in hand. Ideally one wants to be able to clearly see the focus patch as well as subjects at all distances. Corrections, if needed, can come in a variety of ways, depending not just on user’s eye conditions, but on viewing preferences and comfort levels. Even M viewfinders differ in magnification, eye relief, etc, but the focus patch virtual distance is set. The numbers don’t tell everything..... but they’re a necessary start... at least for the optician.

 

Jeff

 

Thank you for providing that link.  It was very helpful and gave me a better understanding of the issues I would probably have to contend with.  If I understand the 2mm virtual distance for the focus patch, I would need to be able to see clearly to a distance of 2mm, rather than up close for reading, to focus properly.  Correct?  Or do I misunderstand?

[Astropap]

I just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and concerns.  The suggestions and information you provided have been very helpful.  I think the suggestion that I try an M before deciding that it's not for me is a good one, and I hope to do that the next time I'm in NYC.  Fortunately (or unfortunately as far as my wallet is concerned), B&H Photo is right around the corner from Penn Station.  

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Amy,

 

Yes, 2 meters/6 feet & 8 inches is correct for an M10.

 

Try to keep in touch. This Forum can be a good place for people to learn & to exchange ideas, etc.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited April 11, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[Jeff S]

Thank you for providing that link. It was very helpful and gave me a better understanding of the issues I would probably have to contend with. If I understand the 2mm virtual distance for the focus patch, I would need to be able to see clearly to a distance of 2mm, rather than up close for reading, to focus properly. Correct? Or do I misunderstand?

Seeing clearly at all distances is ideal, but it sure helps to be able to see the focus patch well. Life is often compromises. I’m fortunate that I’ve been able (until recently) to just use my regular prescription glasses (not specifically set at 2m), and see the focus patch as well as other distances sufficiently well (including correction for astigmatism).

 

I now find that a minor +.5 correction diopter, along with my glasses, optimizes my ability to focus. Rick, our resident specialist (haven’t seen him here lately), said this is not uncommon with aging users. But I didn’t need the numbers to tell me that; actual trial diopters confirmed.

 

Jeff

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jeff S

[rnl]

I'd very much like to try an M but I realized that I may have difficulty seeing what I need to see through the rangefinder in order to focus properly.  I am very near-sighted and wear contacts that correct my dominant eye to 20/20.  I also have presbyopia and have to wear readers (2.5 or 2.75) to read while wearing my contacts.  I have no trouble using an EVF after adjusting the diopter on my Q and DSLR but I'm wondering if the presbyopia will make it very hard for me to see to focus through the rangefinder.  

 

I've made arrangements to rent an M with a 35mm lens but if I'm not going to be able to see to focus, I'll cancel the rental and save the $$.  

 

Your thoughts?

 

Thanks

 

Amy

 

I'm farsighted. It's not a problem

[charlie9089]

Presbyopia should not put you off buying a Leica rangefinder. I own a Leica M240 and Leica M3 and like many people my age (55) I have presbyopia and use reading glasses. 

 

I have absolutely no trouble focusing a 50mm 1.4 or 90mm F2.0 lens wide open using the Leica optical viewfinder. ie a portrait with the eyes in pin-sharp focus but the ears and body well out of focus.  When you view the focusing patch it looks as if it is a couple of metres away (even though it is actually millimetres away inside the camera) so the focusing patch is easy to focus on without eyeglasses or any other aid for that matter. If you are worried, try for yourself.

[Astropap]

Thanks for that!

 

Amy

[david.kize]

I  took a chance and bought an M10 and two lenses before ever having tried any Leica, and not having used a rangefinder since my early years in photography.   Happily, the focusing experience on the M 10 has been okay so far.

 

As I described above, I am very nearsighted (presbyopia) and have a lot of astigmatism.  I mostly wear variable focus (progressive) lens eyeglasses.  I do not have 20/20 vision with these, and I have difficulty reading small or low-contrast print.  However, I will be getting cataract surgery this summer, and things should get better.

 

I have 20/20 distance vision with contacts, and my reading and computer glasses work well with the contacts.  I can wear the contacts all day on vacations and weekends (when I do most of my photography), but my eyes get too tired with contacts at the office.

 

So here is my M10 focusing and viewfinder experience so far: my optical viewfinder and rangefinder work fairly well for me when I use my progressive-lens eyeglasses--not great, but functional enough that my photos have been in focus so far.  A DSLR with autofocus would be quicker and easier when I am wearing my eyeglasses.  With the eyeglasses, I do not see all of the 35mm frameline, and I see none of the 28mm frameline.

 

Using my M10 with my contact lenses, I have no problem.  Focus and seeing all the viewfinder are easy.  I don't need any diopters.  I don't use mono-focus eyeglasses or contacts (where one lens is set for distance, and the other is set for reading).  So whenever possible, I wear contacts when using my M10.

 

I am hopeful that after cataract surgery, including the implantation of lenses with astigmatism correction, I will have no problem with the viewfinder or rangefinder focusing

[jaapv]

Presbyopia should not put you off buying a Leica rangefinder. I own a Leica M240 and Leica M3 and like many people my age (55) I have presbyopia and use reading glasses. 

 

I have absolutely no trouble focusing a 50mm 1.4 or 90mm F2.0 lens wide open using the Leica optical viewfinder. ie a portrait with the eyes in pin-sharp focus but the ears and body well out of focus.  When you view the focusing patch it looks as if it is a couple of metres away (even though it is actually millimetres away inside the camera) so the focusing patch is easy to focus on without eyeglasses or any other aid for that matter. If you are worried, try for yourself.

2 meters, to be exact.

[tobey bilek]

Buy some photo glasses.   One eye zero correction, the other +1 or best correction to see RF patch.  

 

I use my computer glasses that are set for arms length.   Their advantage is astigmatism correction is built in,  but not everyone has this issue.  

[jdlaing]

If you are corrected to 20/20 for infinity,  ask your optometrist how much + correction is required for virtual 3 feet.    Get a plus correction to match.   or use the readers from the drug store  as samples and order correction to match.

 

You could also get photo glasses, one eye for infinity and one for camera.  .People get implants all the time like this when lenses cloud up.  Do not wear glasses at all.

 

If you need to guess, +1 is a good start.   That i what I use and have no accommodation left.

 

There is no great solution

 

20/20 means vision is corrected at 20 feet, not infinity.

[nlk10010]

Buy some photo glasses.   One eye zero correction, the other +1 or best correction to see RF patch.  

 

I use my computer glasses that are set for arms length.   Their advantage is astigmatism correction is built in,  but not everyone has this issue.  

Yea, I'm trying all sorts of things, no glasses, computer glasses (set for 2 feet), distance glasses. So far, the results are inconsistent but are complicated by the fact that with eyeglasses I can't get my eye as close to the viewfinder as I can without, also there's the alignment issue. It seems, however, that using my computer glasses holds a slight edge.

 

I also have astigmatism, even after my cataract surgery, and I think there is a difference between people who have undergone that surgery and those who haven't. If you haven't had cataract surgery (but still need to wear eyeglasses) my guess is that, as Thorsten von Overgaard suggests, using distance eyeglasses may be best; however, if you have, and your eyes can't automatically adjust to various distances, it's more difficult and perhaps a prescription set for about 2 meters, give or take, will give you the best chance. Diopter-only corrections may help but astigmatism will still be present and make life difficult.

 

But it really is trial and error. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by nlk10010

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[Jeff S]

Yea, I'm trying all sorts of things, no glasses, computer glasses (set for 2 feet), distance glasses. So far, the results are inconsistent but are complicated by the fact that with eyeglasses I can't get my eye as close to the viewfinder as I can without, also there's the alignment issue. It seems, however, that using my computer glasses holds a slight edge.

 

I also have astigmatism, even after my cataract surgery, and I think there is a difference between people who have undergone that surgery and those who haven't. If you haven't had cataract surgery (but still need to wear eyeglasses) my guess is that, as Thorsten von Overgaard suggests, using distance eyeglasses may be best; however, if you have, and your eyes can't automatically adjust to various distances, it's more difficult and perhaps a prescription set for about 2 meters, give or take, will give you the best chance. Diopter-only corrections may help but astigmatism will still be present and make life difficult.

 

But it really is trial and error.

Best to use thin and flexible eyeglass frames, if possible, to be able to press your eye tight against the VF.

 

I have astigmatism and use my sunglasses to correct for that and for distance. (Daily use of sunglasses due to light sensitivity has likely prevented need for cataract surgery so far). Now at 67, I recently determined that an additional diopter correction of +.5, along with the glasses, makes for ideal viewing. An eye doc who has posted here wrote that this was common with age and with the M VF ( that has -.5 correction built in).

 

I agree that it’s best to test and see, but a visit to an eye doc to diagnose and address issues first is key. I explained my camera specs and needs to my doc and he was able to set me up well. I later used his free trial diopters to determine best match.

 

The Walter eyepiece, which has both diopter and astigmatism correction, is another option, but not to my liking. I prefer glasses so that my eyes are corrected even when not using the camera . Some prefer contacts, but not my thing. Whatever works.

 

Jeff

Edited May 12, 2018 by Jeff S