So, who's buying the 16-35mm?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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FlashGordonPhotography, on 18 Apr 2018 - 07:05, said:

Turns out there's a reason for the slow startup people bitch about. It loads 500MB of calibration data for the sensor on startup. That means no LENR for exposures up to an hour.

 

—————————

Hi Gordon, I believe many things you’ve said but don’t quite understand or agree with the above statement about slow startup of the X1D and the reason for this being enablement of no-LENR. Please elaborate as it makes no sense, to me.

 

Here is why.

 

I shoot with the Hasselblad H5D-50C and: 1/ it has no LENR, 2/ it has no time limits for long exposure times (none!!), 3/ it starts up instantaneously.

 

I got that information from the most trusted of sources... The internet....

 

**********************************************

 

All in all, this means that image quality is a known quantity: it matches that of the H5D-50c and H6D-50c, which is to say – short of the 54x40mm 100MP sensor, is about the best you can get today. Like all Hasselblad cameras, sensors used in the X1D are individuallyprofiled to a fixed reference color standard at all ISOs – I shoot the X1D comfortably to ISO 12,800. In fact, each camera has nearly half a gigabyte of calibration data in it. I believe Hasselblad is the only company to do this – it’s one of the reasons output is so spectrally neutral and tonally natural across the sensitivity range, and no dark frame subtraction is required even on exposures up to one hour. Color accuracy is one of the main reasons I switched; those of you who have Workflow III will see that the Hasselblad profiles have almost no adjustments, and by far the least HSL adjustments of any camera included. Individual sensor calibration also means consistency is excellent – my H5D-50c, H6D-100c, CFV-50c and X1D all produce identical tonal response (with the exception of course of the H6D-100c, which has a bit more dynamic range extension at either end).

 

****************************************

 

From here and he should know.....

 

https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/01/31/long-term-review-the-hasselblad-x1d/

 

In the comments he puts the start up time to being able to load the calibration data.

 

Gordon

[thighslapper]

..... and it is interesting to note his concluding paragraphs .....

 

'In the long run, I’m actually less concerned about the image quality part than ever before – not only have we past the point of sufficiency, but every subsequent sensor generation improves – albeit by smaller and smaller increments. The rest of the hardware, UI, user experience etc. will be the differentiating factor. For a few, photography is purely work – and you probably wouldn’t bother spending this kind of money on your tools if something cheaper will be deemed acceptable by the client. For the majority, photography is something we do because we enjoy it or because we are compelled to it, and GAS is an unavoidable consequence: we must enjoy our tools too, in order to be creative.'

 

...... and the highlighted bit is what a lot of the forum arguments seem to be about .... things that irritate some people and not others ..... and often make little difference in the great scheme of things as far as the resulting image is concerned. 

 

Just as well photographers are so fickle, otherwise there would be less choice in what we buy and use .......

Edited April 18, 2018 by thighslapper

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[helged]

Any news about the actual release of the 16-35? Previously April 23 was the date, but late May is mentioned in the WATE/wait thread. Anyone else with release info?

[meerec]

I got that information from the most trusted of sources... The internet....

 

**********************************************

 

All in all, this means that image quality is a known quantity: it matches that of the H5D-50c and H6D-50c, which is to say – short of the 54x40mm 100MP sensor, is about the best you can get today. Like all Hasselblad cameras, sensors used in the X1D are [/size]individuallyprofiled to a fixed reference color standard at all ISOs – I shoot the X1D comfortably to ISO 12,800. In fact, each camera has nearly half a gigabyte of calibration data in it. I believe Hasselblad is the only company to do this – it’s one of the reasons output is so spectrally neutral and tonally natural across the sensitivity range, and no dark frame subtraction is required even on exposures up to one hour. Color accuracy is one of the main reasons I switched; those of you who have [/size]Workflow III will see that the Hasselblad profiles have almost no adjustments, and by far the least HSL adjustments of any camera included. Individual sensor calibration also means consistency is excellent – my H5D-50c, H6D-100c, CFV-50c and X1D all produce identical tonal response (with the exception of course of the H6D-100c, which has a bit more dynamic range extension at either end).[/size]

 

****************************************[/size]

 

From here and he should know.....[/size]

 

https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/01/31/long-term-review-the-hasselblad-x1d/

 

In the comments he puts the start up time to being able to load the calibration data.

 

Gordon

... I do not question whether X1D loads calibration data or not to achieve long exposures with no noise reduction or other treats ... I just say that the big brothers like H5D-50C do not endure LENR, and start up instantly, unlike X1D. I base it on my own use of both X1D and H5D ... not internet news.

 

So I think Leica could learn from both Hasselblad’s implementations and offer no LENR in the future I hope.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

... I do not question whether X1D loads calibration data or not to achieve long exposures with no noise reduction or other treats ... I just say that the big brothers like H5D-50C do not endure LENR, and start up instantly, unlike X1D. I base it on my own use of both X1D and H5D ... not internet news.

 

So I think Leica could learn from both Hasselblad’s implementations and offer no LENR in the future I hope.

 

Reading the MT article he seems to imply that the H5D and H6D simply can load the data faster than the X1D. Perhaps the lack of an ASIC in the X1D explains this? But that's beyond my pay grade, I'm afraid and I haven't used a H5D enough to comment on that camera.

 

Leica *can* do it. Sony does it. Even Olympus does it. They just don't because they're stubborn about it. I understand it's uses and occasionally I'd leave it on. I just want the choice. The option to not have it on because I'm shooting for the web or small prints. The option to do my own dark frame and blend it in Photoshop.

 

Gordon

[PBart]

I'm on a list to receive one once in stock. Hope it comes out next week! This is a very important lens for me to use.

[lx1713]

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The option to do my own dark frame and blend it in Photoshop.

 

Gordon

 

Btw, Gordon, how do you do that?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Btw, Gordon, how do you do that?

 

Sometime during the session take an exposure the same length as the shooting frames (I do this at the end when packing up with the body cap on (the lens cap can leak light). Once back just put the dark frame at the top of the stack in Photoshop and change the blend mode to subtract. Some people play with the opacity as well.

 

There's also software that does it automatically and can do a better job with shots of many layers.

 

Gordon

[Alistairm]

I'm on a list to receive one once in stock. Hope it comes out next week! This is a very important lens for me to use.

Me too... have been told I’m first in line and stock is expected in April.

[tommydom]

Sometime during the session take an exposure the same length as the shooting frames (I do this at the end when packing up with the body cap on (the lens cap can leak light). Once back just put the dark frame at the top of the stack in Photoshop and change the blend mode to subtract. Some people play with the opacity as well.

 

There's also software that does it automatically and can do a better job with shots of many layers.

 

Gordon

 

For astrophotography, I use dark frames as you describe here. and two more kinds of shots to use in the software. Flat frames are used to get rid of dust spots in the light train. Bias frames are used to detect hot pixels on the sensor, and rid them from the final product. Stack them with the actual Light frames, and signal is much better isolated from the noise. BTW, I use PixInsight software to put those all together.

 

Tommy.

[mmradman]

For astrophotography, I use dark frames as you describe here. and two more kinds of shots to use in the software. Flat frames are used to get rid of dust spots in the light train. Bias frames are used to detect hot pixels on the sensor, and rid them from the final product. Stack them with the actual Light frames, and signal is much better isolated from the noise. BTW, I use PixInsight software to put those all together.

 

Tommy.

Good to know, even better for Leica to know that we know as we seem to be treated as bunch of numpties. 

 

Leading DSLRs had automatic sensor remapping for dead pixels or columns for ages. Several years ago I had to send my M240 back to Germany for sensor to be remapped for dead column i discovered several months into the ownership, apparently common problem with that model back than especially at ISO 640.  It got remapped and I got CLA free of charge, not complaining.

 

Thankfully SL601 sensor appears to be more robust in that respect.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

For astrophotography, I use dark frames as you describe here. and two more kinds of shots to use in the software. Flat frames are used to get rid of dust spots in the light train. Bias frames are used to detect hot pixels on the sensor, and rid them from the final product. Stack them with the actual Light frames, and signal is much better isolated from the noise. BTW, I use PixInsight software to put those all together.

 

Tommy.

Thanks Tommy. Astrophotography isn’t an area of expertise for me so that is something new I’ve learned today. I’ve only ever done single dark frames for landscapes.

 

A question if I may? How does the multiple frames method stack up to in camera dark frames from and IQ point of view? Is mandatory LENR a pain or just normal use for you?

 

Gordon

[tommydom]

Thanks Tommy. Astrophotography isn’t an area of expertise for me so that is something new I’ve learned today. I’ve only ever done single dark frames for landscapes.

 

A question if I may? How does the multiple frames method stack up to in camera dark frames from and IQ point of view? Is mandatory LENR a pain or just normal use for you?

 

Gordon

Gordon,

 

The multi-frame use is best for very faint objects - such as nebula through a telescope - or when you are working to get the brightest pinpoint stars from a wide angle lens. For the multi-frame work, I usually pause between shots to let the sensor cool down in my cameras. One set I was doing 50sec exposures and 15sec pauses between light-frame captures. The software I use for stacking is probably more suited for the specialty cameras for astrophotography, and it is amazing what goes into the the post processing - lots of trigonometry and statistics. It is all about recognizing everything moves up there removing as much noise as possible. When it works, it delivers the right colors and intensity and the deepest blacks (no signal or noise) in the correct spots.

 

I have used single shot captures with no LENR on a modified Canon (modified IR/UV filter), a modified Sony A7S (modified IR/UV filter), and a stock Sony A7R (no filters installed on the stock camera) with very pleasing effects. I have also done single shot star fields using my M246 and dealt with the LENR. I will say that the post processing on those images was easier to get what I wanted. But I still need to try some more with the M246. On the SL, I have only done one long exposure at sunset on the beach at Cape Hatteras NC USA and it was a 5min shot. I was aiming to capture the change in light and color as the sun set behind me. I used an M50 APO and got a shot that I love. I admit that I picked up the tripod with the camera attached to while it was eating another 5 minutes and walked back to the house. A little cold and windy that evening...

 

I must admit that I need to do some more work to render a educated opinion on the LENR usage on both cameras.

 

However, I would be a very strong proponent of have the option to turn it off. I like options.

 

Tommy.

[tommydom]

Good to know, even better for Leica to know that we know as we seem to be treated as bunch of numpties. 

 

Leading DSLRs had automatic sensor remapping for dead pixels or columns for ages. Several years ago I had to send my M240 back to Germany for sensor to be remapped for dead column i discovered several months into the ownership, apparently common problem with that model back than especially at ISO 640.  It got remapped and I got CLA free of charge, not complaining.

 

Thankfully SL601 sensor appears to be more robust in that respect.

 

My hot pixels were not dead, but were generating signal where there was no signal, and that was over a period of time throughout the captures. Apologies - I should have tried to explain that better before.

 

I've been fortunate that all my gear over the years has not suffered what you went through, and I am truly glad your experience had a great ending.

 

Tommy.

[vincecharus]

vincecharus schrieb am 15 Apr 2018 - 12:01:

 

Well, with all due respect, that's simply nonsense.... I fully agree with "JorisV" #155.

That OIS causes image degradation is just common photographic knowledge. That’s why it is usually turned off while not required, particularly while used on tripod.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/amp/photography/tips-and-solutions/image-stabilization-when-use-it-and-when-turn-it

 

I suppose I should have clarified that not having OIS saves me from forgetting to turning it off from time to time, and OIS is not a feature that I need frequently on super wide angles. That’s enough on semantics.

 

I’m not into this attitude thing. Arrogance doesn’t make up for ignorance. Not even if somebody shoots Leica.

 

It’s precisely this conceited ignorance that gives Leica shooters bad name among photographers.

Edited April 22, 2018 by vincecharus

[vincecharus]

Repeated post deleted

Edited April 22, 2018 by vincecharus

[vincecharus]

Can you please send me one of your own handheld images taken with the 24-90 or the 90-280 where OIS ruined the image quality?

 

Leica recommends to turn OIS off when on a tripod but in all other cases I have never seen a negative impact.

 

Adding OIS to the 16-35 would have made it useful for non-landscape photographers as well and would have made it a much more versatile lens.

 

The 11-23 has already been mentioned a few times in this thread. I used it a lot last week a lot on vacation. It is a very good lens but only in daylight or when it sits on a tripod.

 

Last week I took it to places like Graceland (Memphis) and the Georgia Aquarium (Atlanta), low light, lots of people, not a lot of time to take pictures. Not a good fit. With OIS it would have been though...

That OIS causes image degradation is just common photographic knowledge. That’s why it is usually turned off while not required, particularly while used on tripod.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/amp/photography/tips-and-solutions/image-stabilization-when-use-it-and-when-turn-it

 

I suppose I should have clarified that not having OIS saves me from forgetting to turning it off from time to time, and OIS is not a feature that I need frequently on super wide angles. That’s enough on semantics.

 

I’m not into this attitude thing. Arrogance doesn’t make up for ignorance. Not even if somebody shoots Leica.

 

It’s precisely this conceited ignorance that gives Leica shooters bad name among photographers.

Edited April 22, 2018 by vincecharus

[FlashGordonPhotography]

That OIS causes image degradation is just common photographic knowledge. That’s why it is usually turned off while not required, particularly while used on tripod.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/amp/photography/tips-and-solutions/image-stabilization-when-use-it-and-when-turn-it

 

I suppose I should have clarified that not having OIS saves me from forgetting to turning it off from time to time, and OIS is not a feature that I need frequently on super wide angles. That’s enough on semantics.

 

I’m not into this attitude thing. Arrogance doesn’t make up for ignorance. Not even if somebody shoots Leica.

 

It’s precisely this conceited ignorance that gives Leica shooters bad name among photographers.

 

Sorry mate but that was uncalled for. It was a simple question. Nothing conceited or arrogant about it. Was there a need to get personal?

 

And you're wrong.

 

IS doesn't degrade image quality. Improper use of image stabilisation can degrade image quality. You even linked an article that explains that. There are technical limitations implementing it into a lens design as well as cost and size impacts. Some systems even have tripod detection. Leica's choice not to implement iS has nothing to do with the output. It's cost, and lens design considerations.

 

There are only a few lenses available where there is an IS and non-IS version of the same lens to compare (most notably the Canon 70-200 F4L and LIS) and none of them show any real world IQ differences. All the major manufacturers utilise IS in the majority of their highest quality lenses.

 

The only reason a lens with IS degrades IQ is due to improper use.

 

Gordon

[Vieri]

Sorry mate but that was uncalled for. It was a simple question. Nothing conceited or arrogant about it. Was there a need to get personal?

 

And you're wrong.

 

IS doesn't degrade image quality. Improper use of image stabilisation can degrade image quality. You even linked an article that explains that. There are technical limitations implementing it into a lens design as well as cost and size impacts. Some systems even have tripod detection. Leica's choice not to implement iS has nothing to do with the output. It's cost, and lens design considerations.

 

There are only a few lenses available where there is an IS and non-IS version of the same lens to compare (most notably the Canon 70-200 F4L and LIS) and none of them show any real world IQ differences. All the major manufacturers utilise IS in the majority of their highest quality lenses.

 

The only reason a lens with IS degrades IQ is due to improper use.

 

Gordon

 

 

Gordon, I am saying this genuinely and solely with the aim to help make this conversation (and other conversation in the forum) more pleasant and profitable for everyone, so please take my comment in this spirit. You are a very knowledgeable person, no doubt; however, I am sorry but the gentleman has a point. Perhaps it is your way of wording your comments - starting with curt statements such as "And you are wrong.", or "Sorry but no." and such, that give that impression to people. On one end, just because you affirm with such strength that someone is wrong doesn't make it so. On the other hand, no matter how right you indeed are (or not), no matter the intention behind your posting, the attitude you often show when replying makes you look arrogant and patronising, and that automatically moves what you say, no matter how interesting it might be, to the "oh... not again" bin, and it makes me simply skipping your comments - and therefore not profiting from your knowledge, which is a pity because sharing knowledge is the point of being in a forum such as this in the first place. Again, please take my comment in the positive spirit with which I offered it.

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

Edited April 22, 2018 by Vieri

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[IkarusJohn]

Okay, so if I read the B&H article correctly, the advantage of image stabilisation is that it smooths out camera movements, which is useful particularly when using longer focal lengths and in lower light situations.

 

Its limitations are that it is really only useful when photographing static objects - moving objects may be blurrier or streakier (so, turn it off when photographing birds and, say sports, when using the 90-280? Didn’t know that). When using a tripod, you can get a “feedback loop” where the camera tries to compensate for its own movement. And, it eats battery.

 

Seems like a useful tool when used properly. Not sure if the Leica zooms have the panning function referred to in the article, but I will probably pay more attention to when I might turn the function off. I doubt I would miss it on wides as camera shake is more an issue for me with longer focal lengths.

 

If that article is accurate, image stabilisation should not be stigmatised as always degrading image quaity or always improving it. The case for including it in the new wide, balanced against size and cost, seems weak - wides are commonly used on tripods (in my experience) and rarely with subjects that might induce motion blur, unless intentionally (see Vieri’s landscapes).

 

Looks like another sensible decision by Leica which may annoy a minority ...