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Question about long video sequences


scott kirkpatrick

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Even though the SL (with access to CL/TL lenses) is an excellent 4K video platform in many ways, it is still subject to some restrictions that seem to be imposed on all still+video cameras.  Shots exceeding about 6 minutes are broken up into files no larger than 4.2GB.  And, I discovered recently while filming a play, the camera stops without warning at about 25 minutes.  I have read somewhere that this is to avoid import duties which are higher for video gear than for still image cameras, but it can cause lost material.  

 

The 4.2 GB file chunks can be edited back together, but does anyone have suggestions on how to avoid the 25 min cutoff?  The obvious move is to insert a cut when possible (like during a scene blackout), but that may cause losing some audio continuity.  I'll have to experiment to see how long a delay is introduced by triggering video off then on again.

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Scott,

 

You can avoid the 30 minute limit if you use an external HDMI recorder (Odyssey, Atomos, BlackMagic, Video Devices).

 

The other option is to manually stop/start recording during a break in the action. This can put shots out of sync if you are using several cameras or an external sound recorder.

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https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-compact-cameras-with-no-video-length-limit

 

You'll have to run a second camera (CL?) to make recording seamless :(

Thanks for the Quora link, which confirms my ~30 minutes recollection.  I think the EU protectionism against Asian video electronics goes back to the days of Philips and videotape.  There was a time when all VCRs entering Europe had to go to a single inspection station to be checked for compliance with European high standards.  This station was set up in Poitiers, which was not terribly convenient...

 

And I have been shooting with two cameras, but the line feed audio of highest quality can only go into one of them.

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Scott,

 

You can avoid the 30 minute limit if you use an external HDMI recorder (Odyssey, Atomos, BlackMagic, Video Devices).

 

The other option is to manually stop/start recording during a break in the action. This can put shots out of sync if you are using several cameras or an external sound recorder.

 

Right, there are consequences of manually inserting a break before 30 minutes have expired.  I'm using an external preamp from Sound Devices, which passes a very clean audio signal to the camera. The newest of their models, which I don't have, provide a backup audio recording on an SDHC chip right in the preamp, which would solve the audio interruption problem and synch up multiple cameras.  Blackouts in plays nowadays seem to be filled with music, so it is important to keep the audio rolling.

 

A preamp is much smaller than an HDMI recorder, which typically also has a 5" or 7" or even larger monitor.  

Edited by scott kirkpatrick
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Incidentally, it is pointed out in the Quora link that Panasonic doesn't impose a 30 minute cutoff on its video in the GH-5 and other recent M43 models.  I think this should go on the firmware request line.  Apparently the tariff requirement to distinguish video and still digital gear is long gone.

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Incidentally, it is pointed out in the Quora link that Panasonic doesn't impose a 30 minute cutoff on its video in the GH-5 and other recent M43 models.  I think this should go on the firmware request line.  Apparently the tariff requirement to distinguish video and still digital gear is long gone.

 

 I think they pay the tax that differentiates it as a video camera. It might be small part of the reason why Canon's Cine line and DSLRs remain quite different in operations. I can imagine a mirrorless doing the job of both stills and video relatively efficiently but a DSLR has always been a clunker in my mind. So the 30 minutes limit may be the very thing that's designed to differentiate the markets for tax or other purposes. Other than the fact that I think the workflow of delivering video and stills creatively is just too different.

Edited by lx1713
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Incidentally, it is pointed out in the Quora link that Panasonic doesn't impose a 30 minute cutoff on its video in the GH-5 and other recent M43 models.  I think this should go on the firmware request line.  Apparently the tariff requirement to distinguish video and still digital gear is long gone.

According to Quora that is only in the USA.

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According to Quora that is only in the USA.

You're right.  The article talked about Panasonic doing right for US, not us. Grrr.  I wonder if there is a clever way to let the user change the setting, deep enough in the menus that it wouldn't be noticed, but that is not Leica's way.

 

Actually, the >30 min tariff, it it is still applied, is on cameras made outside Europe and shipped into Europe.  So it should not apply to Leica's products, which are assembled and take on their final character while inside this border.  

Edited by scott kirkpatrick
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Scott, just get the HDMI recorder. In addition to circumventing the 30 min restriction, it will improve quality of your footage immensely, as you'll be able to shoot ProRes HQ 10-bit, while internal recording is always compressed 8-bit.

 

Does it do a better job at higher ISOs? Theoretically, I know that with more colours bits captured, yes but at 1600 and 3200? I sort of remember that video you shared on the performance as something shot at high ISOs. Would I be right?

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Does it do a better job at higher ISOs? Theoretically, I know that with more colours bits captured, yes but at 1600 and 3200? I sort of remember that video you shared on the performance as something shot at high ISOs. Would I be right?

 

The only difference is that there is no noise reduction via HDMI at ISO800 and up. When you shoot in-camera, there is no way to avoid it. So, the high-ISO footage from the recorder actually looks grainier, but DaVinci Resolve Studio does an excellent job taking care of it. Also, it really depends on how you shoot it. If you shoot L-Log with an intent to apply the Arri LUT, you need to underexpose two stops and then lift shadows. In that case, the footage even at ISO400 can be pretty noisy. However, if you still shoot L-Log, but overexpose a stop and then normalize by hand, highlights are still there, but overall noise at ISO800 is virtually unnoticeable.

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An external recorder makes the SL a very workable video tool. I shoot the SL as my main still camera, but can't imagine shooting video direct to card. If I'm shooting video, I'm using either a PIX-E7 or PIX-E5 recorder. The 5" is nice for handheld or gimbal work. The 7" is lovely in studio. The extra screen real estate makes a huge difference. 

 

Beyond the recording time limitation fix, the 10-bit 422 encoding looks a lot better and is more malleable in post. The on-screen capture assistants (waveform, vectorscope, histogram, zebra, false color) also aid greatly in getting exposure dialed in. And focus peaking and single tap to zoom to 100% makes pulling focus so much easier. All overlays and assistants are easily customizable. You can also load up to 4 LUTs and toggle them for preview, thus capturing in ungraded log but viewing with LUT applied. 

 

On the PIX-E recorders, you can attach a small add-on, the PIX-LR, which is an XLR audio interface. You get two XLR inputs, which feature the same Sound Devices analog preamps and analog limiters as their more expensive field mixer/recorders (but for just $399). All audio controls including gain and delay are accessible on the PIX-E's large touchscreen. Up to 8 tracks of audio (including scratch tracks from the SL's stereo mic over HDMI) and the two XLR inputs are recorded directly into the ProRes file. You can use both the onscreen controls and the tactile buttons on the unit. No extra battery required. It feeds off the PIX-E's power and still provides 48v phantom power to mics that require it. 

 

Video is recorded onto a SpeedDrive enclosure (1TB in my case), which has SATA speeds for the laptop-grade mSATA SSD inside, but is plug-and-play with USB 3.0 Type A. At 550 MB/s throughput on USB, I've edited 4K ProRes straight off the SpeedDrive with no hiccups. No adapter or sled needed, and they are just a little larger than an average thumb drive - totally pocketable. 

 

So, yes, you can shoot video straight to the SD card on the SL. I just can't ever imagine going back to that workflow ever again. The Video Devices PIX-E recorder changes the whole game, both for video and audio. 

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I shoot video only occasionally, archiving a production or capturing a game, so video quality isn't my highest priority (but it's hard not to go for as much as possible).  External sound recording, or being careful to overlap sound on two cameras so that each can take a planned shutdown before their 30 minutes are up, can save me from the expense and extra baggage of an hdmi recorder and a rig to hold it on.  I'm more disappointed by missing one or two lines half an hour into a play that I shot twice, than by the video quality.  But I suspect resistance will prove futile in the end. 

 

Dave Farkas' suggestion, which his store offers, looks like a complete solution and is relatively compact.  I can vouch for the audio quality of Sound Devices' recording.  Irakly mentions several options that should also be good and cost less, but have to be assembled with a little more care to be sure the workflow and the storage solution are complete.  I use Curtis Judd's  site to get an overview of some of the many options available, their quality and how they connect.  Storage for HDMI recording (why not everything onto fast SDHC cards???) still seems to involve exotic media not used in any other devices.  

 

And even with the raw material offloaded onto USB 3.0 disks, I have trouble finding the 300-500 GB of laptop SSD space needed for the video editor to work with the expanded material on a timeline of an hour's 4K production.  Any thoughts on that?

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And even with the raw material offloaded onto USB 3.0 disks, I have trouble finding the 300-500 GB of laptop SSD space needed for the video editor to work with the expanded material on a timeline of an hour's 4K production.  Any thoughts on that?

 

Most video editors let you use a proxy workflow. They create low bitrate intermediate files for editing (like ProRes Proxy in HD), and then go back to the higher quality files when you want to render.

Incidentally, I read that most Oscar Best Picture nominees used a proxy workflow this year.

 

Just search for "(name of your editing package) proxy workflow" on youtube to see how it's done.

 

Edit: here's the link for Oscar nominees

https://blog.frame.io/2018/03/05/oscar-2018-workflows/

Edited by BernardC
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Dave Farkas' suggestion, which his store offers, looks like a complete solution and is relatively compact.  I can vouch for the audio quality of Sound Devices' recording.  Irakly mentions several options that should also be good and cost less, but have to be assembled with a little more care to be sure the workflow and the storage solution are complete.  I use Curtis Judd's  site to get an overview of some of the many options available, their quality and how they connect.  Storage for HDMI recording (why not everything onto fast SDHC cards???) still seems to involve exotic media not used in any other devices.  

 

And even with the raw material offloaded onto USB 3.0 disks, I have trouble finding the 300-500 GB of laptop SSD space needed for the video editor to work with the expanded material on a timeline of an hour's 4K production.  Any thoughts on that?

 

I use Blackmagic Video Assist 4K, which happens to be a pretty good sound recorder too. You can either directly record stereo via two XLR mics, or have an on-camera microphone fed through HDMI.

 

I use an external USB 3.1 500GB SSD as a video editor scratch disk. It is not as fast as an internal Macbook Pro 2017 SSD, but fast enough for 4K video playback in DaVinci Resolve Studio.

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Most video editors let you use a proxy workflow. They create low bitrate intermediate files for editing (like ProRes Proxy in HD), and then go back to the higher quality files when you want to render.

Incidentally, I read that most Oscar Best Picture nominees used a proxy workflow this year.

 

Just search for "(name of your editing package) proxy workflow" on youtube to see how it's done.

 

Edit: here's the link for Oscar nominees

https://blog.frame.io/2018/03/05/oscar-2018-workflows/

 

I highly recommend the link, as an introduction and just a sketch of the full rabbit-hole of video/film production process.  But it does make the point that planning a project at the outset is a good idea even for modest efforts like mine.

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I use Blackmagic Video Assist 4K, which happens to be a pretty good sound recorder too. You can either directly record stereo via two XLR mics, or have an on-camera microphone fed through HDMI.

 

I use an external USB 3.1 500GB SSD as a video editor scratch disk. It is not as fast as an internal Macbook Pro 2017 SSD, but fast enough for 4K video playback in DaVinci Resolve Studio.

 

Irakly,

 

I was just checking out the specs on the Blackmagic Video Assist 4K and see that it uses SD cards for recording. Seems an odd (and expensive choice). In order to get 4K recording, you have to use UHS-II cards. The only "normal" brand cards I could find in high capacity are the Lexar 1000x UHS-II cards. The 256GB card is about $280 USD each. For 1TB of storage, you'll be spending over $1,100 USD. The PIX-E series uses a $60 enclosure and you load it up with whatever mSTA SSD you want. I use the Samsung EVO 860 in 1TB size, for $329 USD. And being a USB 3.0 enclosure with a legit SSD inside, you're getting sustained read/transfer speeds to your computer of 550 MB/s. Even the fastest card readers are limited to around 200 MB/s, with most running much slower than this. I'm not trying to nitpick here. Blackmagic makes some really good stuff. It's just an odd choice - one which costs the user time and money, both factors compounding the more you shoot. 

 

To give some of the new video shooters here an idea of how much space you might need for 4K DCI ProRes 422 footage, I'll list a few recent video projects with finished run times and how much footage was captured:

 

Oberwerth Kate Bag review:

 

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=sV--9slHIek

 

10:26 finished run time

436 GB of footage

Scripted. Shot in studio, with location shooting, B-roll, and location pick up shots

 

28mm Summaron in Little Havana:

 

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=ryBtnQZfUvs

 

8:14 finished run time

358 GB of footage

Unscripted. Shot documentary style on location, B-roll on location, 

 

CL Unboxing and Overview:

 

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=txEwe6Qx5Fc

 

26:50 finished run time

685 GB of footage

Unscripted (regrettably). Shot in studio, some B-roll 

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There seem to be several tradeoffs here.  Shooting to HDMI permits saving in 4K 422 ProRes, which runs about 5-10 GB/min, while shooting in-camera with an AVC codec, still at C4K produces about 750 MB/min, so I can safely go over an hour on a 64GB UHS II SD card, of which I already have many.  To get the higher quality of eternal recording requires more storage and fast SD cards at roughly 1$/GB cost more than external SSD drives (cited at $0.33/GB) but the minimum expense for one TB is higher than reuse of 128 to 256GB SD cards.  I'm actually saving the raw shots onto 4TB WD Passport USB drives, which cost about $0.025/GB.  (Pros prefer the ruggedized Lacie equivalent, which costs about twice as much.)  I wonder if the prices of SD cards will fall enough faster than SD SATA disks, so that the difference will go away in the nest year or two.

 

Anyway, I'm still messing around and postponing some of these decisions.  But David's results do look great.  (The links above don't work at the moment, but they can be found at the RedDotForum blog.)

Edited by scott kirkpatrick
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