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M11 Where To From Here? [merged thread]


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What is so difficult to understand about not needing higher MPixels? If you really need more MPixels then there are alternatives.

 

I am wondering whether to email Sony and complain about their lack of understanding their customer base by failing to fit a mechanical rangefinder onto their A7/9 cameras ......

Alternatively, what is so difficult to understand about wanting higher MPixels?

It's easy to understand why one wouldn't. Most of the time, many of us do not, but when it matters, the math explains - there simply isn't as much information there. And yes, there are alternatives, we use them - but it would be great if we didn't have to because the M user experience is quite preferable, and it does not seem an insane leap for them to offer a sensor that is simply on par with other offerings today. Hell, even the CL sensor is more competitive - 24mp but in a aps-c package. 

 

I am understanding that the RF design introduces technical challenges no other manufacturer has to deal with, and that this may slow (indeed has slowed) the process of the higher MP M's - but judging by Leica's historical model of pursuing optical excellence, it seems silly to not include the sensor as part of that push. 

 

As for your last point, it is simply seems much more likely for Leica to include a better sensor in their offering than for another company to redevelop a dated (but unique, and very well designed) type of system from the ground up. I'd imagine many Leica users would prefer the best sensor possible, while many Sony users would be ambivalent about RF design. 

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My list (and then caveats)

  • better sensor (Assumed as tech does that) order ranked. 1) better dynamic range 2) better ISO performance 3) Higher MP which should should come along for free beyond 24MP
  • lighter - it feels solid but I'd love to shave XX grams as I carry it across my shoulder walking. BTW lighter can be stronger and modern. I race sailboats - see Carbon fiber
  • Connectivity - please work on this. We're talking 2020'ish so how about 2018 level of wifi/bluetooth tethering to all phones (IOS & Android). I have a wonderful display on my Samsung S8 that will always be better than whatever display they shoehorn onto a camera. Plus much better processing power compared to the camera (On camera and often cloud based processing by 2020)
  • Rear Display, why? Do I really need a rear mounted display at all then? I would love Leica to abandon the cost, power and engineering of their display (that is not world class) and offload all display and exotic menu controls to smartphones who do have world class displays (Also waterproof ones). I understand how radical that is. But when I shot film I left the house at ISO 100 and did just fine as I had aperture and speed to compensate. In my Leica shooting I find I use those buried menu's hardly at all. Imagine how rough and tough a modern leica could be if you put a carbon fiber waterproof back on the camera
  • NO display at all on rear, can't go that far?  OK then how about a smaller OLED display covered in Gorilla glass that gives me a histogram of what I just shot ... It can be much smaller and lower cost than a full display project.

 

Caveats: I shoot a Canon 5DS (50MP) with 100-400L for sailing photography. Canon shooter for 25+ years. 50 MP gives me huge room to crop - much cheaper than a 600 or 800 lens. Love the big MP camera. I only shoot a 35mm with my M10 - cropping is done with my feet :-) I don't ever see me getting a 75 or 90 lens for Leica so my views are dominated by my shooting style with M10

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As someone for whom a $1,000 is a major expense, I would love an M11 with an M262 price, M6 size and weight, and 262/240 battery life. And I know perfectly well that will never happen, which is why I will most likely end up buying a used M11 two to three years after it is released and my 262 has met the inevitable digital camera death. Or maybe I'll have to settle for an M10 . . .

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Not always, but when they were leading edge is a long time ago (M3 for example). If this is true what you are stating then the value of Leica is really within their older film M cameras and not in the modern digital ones. I doubt that a company which is "always behind" will survive in today's market environment in the long term. The Leica name still carries a good momentum especially for collectors these days, and I give them credit that they try to go after new markets (cellphone, the SL and the Q). But will it be sufficient - this remains to be seen and opinions will surely differ in this point. 

 

By far the two least innovative camera manufacturers currently are Nikon and Canon. Whether these two will survive is as pertinent. Leica are probably the most innovative at the moment with both new lines and substantial legacy support. Olympus seems to be doing surprisingly well (I know a lot of Olympus users) as do Fuji et al. Leading edge is a far from simple to define parameter these days.

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By far the two least innovative camera manufacturers currently are Nikon and Canon. Whether these two will survive is as pertinent. Leica are probably the most innovative at the moment with both new lines and substantial legacy support. Olympus seems to be doing surprisingly well (I know a lot of Olympus users) as do Fuji et al. Leading edge is a far from simple to define parameter these days.

Indeed.

What we need is a camera system with a Sony sensor, Leica usability and lenses, iphone size and weight (OK, maybe Oly/Pan MFT), Nikon autofocus, and Canon flash.

Why won't Leica make this? 

 

 

Edit. and none of that old tech SLR flappy mirror stuff.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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Indeed.

What we need is a camera system with a Sony sensor, Leica usability and lenses, iphone size and weight (OK, maybe Oly/Pan MFT), Nikon autofocus, and Canon flash.

Why won't Leica make this? 

 

 

Edit. and none of that old tech SLR flappy mirror stuff.

 

+1. I fully agree!

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By far the two least innovative camera manufacturers currently are Nikon and Canon. 

 

Can't disagree, but they both seem to finally be responding to the mirrorless movement.  In some ways their legacy problem is far greater than Leica's in terms of Lens compatibility.  Leica's were already small with comparatively short flange distances. Not so for CaNikons who face having to use adapters to support all their legacy glass. Nikon, apparently, seems to be on the verge of delivering a new pro-level mirrorless camera with an entirely new lens mount. Grain of salt until its real of course, but per Nikon rumors, they've been submitting a slew of new lens patents, among them a 52mm 0.9 as well as 35mm 1.2  Could be interesting. 

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Can't disagree, but they both seem to finally be responding to the mirrorless movement.  In some ways their legacy problem is far greater than Leica's in terms of Lens compatibility.  Leica's were already small with comparatively short flange distances.

 

Leica took a lot of flak over the demise of the R system but with hindsight (and given that some support is available even now) it appears that it might have been a wise decision to accept that it needed to be pensioned off. Leica have been surprisingly innovative and far-sighted with their mirrorless offerings in producing a new mult-iformat mount, and I do agree that their legacy problems are awkward but possible to deal with relatively straightforwardly provided not too much is asked of them. That said its the M system and the expectations of it which are Leica's real area of difficulty. Far easier to design a new system than optimise a somewhat compromised existing system.

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Indeed.

What we need is a camera system with a Sony sensor, Leica usability and lenses, iphone size and weight (OK, maybe Oly/Pan MFT), Nikon autofocus, and Canon flash.

Why won't Leica make this? 

 

 

Edit. and none of that old tech SLR flappy mirror stuff.

Because Sony is off the shelf sensors and they won’t design a specific one to work with all the legacy lenses.

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I disagree with this. Exactly the same argument can and does occur within the sciences. I can assure you there is inter-field arrogance and rivalry between disciplines in science, even those that are extremely closely related. It’s human nature (for most) sadly to self-promote and deride others.

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Indeed.

What we need is a camera system with a Sony sensor, Leica usability and lenses, iphone size and weight (OK, maybe Oly/Pan MFT), Nikon autofocus, and Canon flash.

Why won't Leica make this? 

 

 

Edit. and none of that old tech SLR flappy mirror stuff.

 

“iPhone size and weight”? lol ok. There’s obviously a joke there I’m not seeing.

 

Erm... for the avoidance of doubt - my post was intended as sarcasm - about this "debate" on pixels which seems to flare up like a brush fire on innocent threads across the forum. 

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Erm... for the avoidance of doubt - my post was intended as sarcasm - about this "debate" on pixels which seems to flare up like a brush fire on innocent threads across the forum. 

 

Well...if these debates occur so often here, maybe there is something to it....;)

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