Which would you choose: 28mm Elmarit ASPH or 28mm Summilux?

[MarkP]

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All of this is reassuring me that I should keep my excellent 28 Summicron ASPH v1 and not upgrade to the v2.

 

For me the 28 Elmarit ASPH is a very different lens, not just size and speed, but that I often find it just too contrasty and lacking in the subtlety of the Summicron. 

[jmahto]

For me it was totally unusable. For a subject at 15 feet or beyond I had a focus shift measured in feet, quite literally. Tried two copies, both new, both the same. Lots of photos of blurred subjects with a sharp background.

 

On top of that, low contrast and muddy details, quite striking when compared side-by-side with the 24 elmarit.

 

Worst M lens I’ve ever used. Sore disappointment and cost me.

 

Well, it must be a bad copy then. At 15ft and f2, the DOF is 12ft!  Even with pixel peeping, it will be at least half of that, which is 6ft. And as you stop down the DOF will only expand further. 

 

If there is focus shift then it will be noticeable only in closest focusing distance, not at 15ft. Of course, I haven't seen your example shots therefore hard to say what was going on but my bet is for bad lens.

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[dkmoore]

I've owned 3 copies of the OG 28 Cron and never experienced any issues whatsoever. In fact, it was my favorite Leica lens for a long time.

 

I just upgraded to the V2 28 Cron and will be testing this weekend. My guess is that it will fine.

[Jeff S]

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258071-leica-28mm-summicron-asph-2016-11672-owners-thread/

 

I admit i gathered potential focus shift "issues" from a quick skim of the thread, so I may have misunderstood. In the later pages focus shift doesn't appear to be an issue of contention (in that focus shift is a non-issue). I just wanted to hear from user experience if they've come across it, and the extent of it.

 

Either way may be minor because I've also come across people saying the 35FLE has focus shift, but I've never noticed it in my real world use.

I haven’t changed my findings or opinion since posting 2 years ago on page 1 of the thread you linked.

 

Jeff

[gotium]

Well, it must be a bad copy then. At 15ft and f2, the DOF is 12ft!  Even with pixel peeping, it will be at least half of that, which is 6ft. And as you stop down the DOF will only expand further. 

 

If there is focus shift then it will be noticeable only in closest focusing distance, not at 15ft. Of course, I haven't seen your example shots therefore hard to say what was going on but my bet is for bad lens.

DOF_28cron_f2.jpg

 

 

I've owned 3 copies of the OG 28 Cron and never experienced any issues whatsoever. In fact, it was my favorite Leica lens for a long time.

 

I just upgraded to the V2 28 Cron and will be testing this weekend. My guess is that it will fine.

 

 

I can only assume that there was a bad batch, as so many have reported good experiences with this lens - such that I had really high hopes! But it wasn't just one, but TWO brand-new copies in my case, and they were equally awful. 

 

For subjects at about 15 feet, stopping down to f/4 or so left them blurred, and the horizon behind them completely sharp. That's what prompted me to pixel peep and test them. Using a tripod and a tree stump a few feet away (I didn't measure, and I've since deleted the photos), focus shifted back so far that the subject remained entirely outside (in front) of the focal plane until f/8. Nuts.

 

Then on top of that, as I mentioned, the details were notably blurry and low-contrast compared with the (exemplary) 24 elmarit. 

 

Shockingly poor performance for a $4k lens, I felt. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by gotium

[chasdfg]

I just snagged a 28lux used, but this didn't come with a plastic 49mm lens cap, or a hood thread protection ring for use without the hood so as not to expose the hood mounting threads when the hood isn't used. This is unlike my 35lux FLE. Is this the norm? It also came with a filter thread protection ring which is also unlike my 35lux.

[enboe]

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I just snagged a 28lux used, but this didn't come with a plastic 49mm lens cap, or a hood thread protection ring for use without the hood so as not to expose the hood mounting threads when the hood isn't used. This is unlike my 35lux FLE. Is this the norm? It also came with a filter thread protection ring which is also unlike my 35lux.

 

 

When I purchased the 28 Lux new new, it came complete with lens, back cap, front cap, thread protection ring, hood, hood cap, and case.

 

Eric

[chasdfg]

Thanks Eric. Missing a few components is not a deal breaker for me.

Caps and hood threads aside, having shot with the 28lux over the past 2 days, here are my thoughts for anyone else who may be interested. In short, I am very pleased.
 

- The build quality is a notch above the 35lux and 50lux I have, which is somewhat refreshing (I wish this was the standard). The lens is hefty and this is noticeable, but the weight didn't bother me while I was out shooting with it for the past two days. It does look strange on my M240 because it looks like an inflated 35FLE.

 

- Viewfinder blockage is a mostly non-issue for me. This said, framing with this lens with the 28mm framelines of the M240 may take some getting used to. I did notice this before with the Elmarit on the M240, but maybe with the added viewfinder blockage, framing with the M240 can be tricky sometimes. For the most part I was ok with it but time will tell how much of an annoyance this will be. 

- I suspect this copy has slight focus shift, as the point of focus in some of my shots (more "proper" testing), when stopped down to 2.8, seems to shift backwards. Also, some shots appear to have slight back focus. I could not consistently reproduce poor results. I will probably need to spend more time shooting to see if this affects anything in practice. Some casual shots I took appear slightly unsharp at the point I am focusing at, but for the most part I am happy because I got the shot. My eyesight isn't the best and I can live with slightly mis-focused shots if this is my doing. If it's the lens's I would wish to get it corrected. The previous owner used an SL so any back focus was an non-issue for him and I don't think it is my camera's issue (the back focus) because it was recently calibrated. 

Compared to the Elmarit ASPH 11677 - The 28lux has rather strong vignetting. I like that, but others won't. The size is obviously a difference of night and day. I admit while I was swooning over the Elmarit's nimbleness, I did find it difficult to mount at times. Comparing images shot by the 28lux and 28Elmarit wide open (I didn't stop the 28lux down except to check for focus shift), the Elmarit's images appear to have a lot more contrast, sometimes too much. The Elmarit does feel more clinical, but undeniably it does pack a punch..and it definitely punches way above it's weight. 

Compared to the 35FLE - I prefer the way the 28lux renders over the 35FLE, but this is just preliminary. They are of course part of the same family, so I would be hard pressed (and lack the vocabulary) to accurately describe the differences. It's just the feeling I get. The bokeh appears softer. The 35FLE (possibly because of the potential focus "issues" of the 28lux i have) is definitely sharper.

Edited March 11, 2018 by chasdfg

[Rob L]

I have a both the new version Elmarit ASPH 28 and Summicron ASPH 28 new version and both of these when tested with my electronic viewfinder on the M10 at infinity distance focus just shy of the infinity hard stop. None of my other Leica lenses do this. They also back focus very slightly, but I never noticed this in use, only when tested with the viewfinder. I have some Zeiss Loxia and the CV 40 1.2 and CV65 for my Sony and all of these focus shy of the hard stop (by design), but none of my Leica outside of the brand new 28s do this?

[Mr.Q]

I have a both the new version Elmarit ASPH 28 and Summicron ASPH 28 new version and both of these when tested with my electronic viewfinder on the M10 at infinity distance focus just shy of the infinity hard stop. None of my other Leica lenses do this. They also back focus very slightly, but I never noticed this in use, only when tested with the viewfinder. I have some Zeiss Loxia and the CV 40 1.2 and CV65 for my Sony and all of these focus shy of the hard stop (by design), but none of my Leica outside of the brand new 28s do this?

I'm interested in the new versions of the Elmarit and Summicron. How do they compare at f2.8?

[Ko.Fe.]

The street and documentary single lens photographer I know and studying for sometime is Winogrand.

He is more less one lens photographer and it was Canon 28 3.5, then Canon 28 2.8 and at the end Elmarit-m 28 2.8.

For street and documentary photography.

If I would be able, no capable, of street photography as close as he did with 28mm and if I would be as dedicated to street and documentary as he was, I would have jumped on ASPH 28 2.8. I'm 100% this is what GW would do....

Not huge and awkward 28 Lux.

Street and documentary photography is not f1.4 photography. IMO. 28 f1.4 is something I would consider as portrait lens.

28mm is working great for it on RF cameras. I almost have to force myself to use 50mm for portraits now, because 28 is this good on Leica and else RF cameras.

[chasdfg]

I have a both the new version Elmarit ASPH 28 and Summicron ASPH 28 new version and both of these when tested with my electronic viewfinder on the M10 at infinity distance focus just shy of the infinity hard stop. None of my other Leica lenses do this. They also back focus very slightly, but I never noticed this in use, only when tested with the viewfinder. I have some Zeiss Loxia and the CV 40 1.2 and CV65 for my Sony and all of these focus shy of the hard stop (by design), but none of my Leica outside of the brand new 28s do this?

 

I never tried the 28 Elmarit ASPH with the EVF (I just sold it, because I can't justify two 28mms, though that's just me cause I couldn't justify 2 35mms either even if I preferred 35), though when I shot with it on the M240 I didn't note of an inability to hit the infinity hard stop shy of infinity, nor did I notice any back focus. I'm pretty sure of this. I'm quite particular about focus when I purchase a lens so I know exactly how it performs and so I can compensate any of these focus issues in the field, or send the lens and/or camera for calibration. Thereafter I'm not particular because I know what parameters to keep an eye on.

 

The street and documentary single lens photographer I know and studying for sometime is Winogrand.

He is more less one lens photographer and it was Canon 28 3.5, then Canon 28 2.8 and at the end Elmarit-m 28 2.8.

For street and documentary photography.

If I would be able, no capable, of street photography as close as he did with 28mm and if I would be as dedicated to street and documentary as he was, I would have jumped on ASPH 28 2.8. I'm 100% this is what GW would do....

Not huge and awkward 28 Lux.

Street and documentary photography is not f1.4 photography. IMO. 28 f1.4 is something I would consider as portrait lens.

28mm is working great for it on RF cameras. I almost have to force myself to use 50mm for portraits now, because 28 is this good on Leica and else RF cameras.

 

I believe anyone can use any 28 and come up with very nice images since it's more about composition. Nevertheless I do concede that smaller glass or kits do have their advantages for street shooting. I think a 28 Elmarit ASPH is less "intimidating" than a 28lux, and a 28lux less intimidating compared to a 28 1.4D/E Nikon, and so on. I've seen lovely pics taken with an 18mm on a Fuji too  - that Fuji 18mm on an X-T10/20 is really, really small. The small size of the 28 Elmarit ASPH does inspire. It is a very street-sy lens in that respect.

 

I like the 1.4 on the 28lux for lower light shots, for the rendering it gives at 1.4, for the ability to shoot it stopped down to give some context and then to turn the aperture ring to isolate subjects (granted, it is a 28mm and there is only so much isolation it can do). If I were to have one 28mm for portraits, travel and street, this would be it. Portability and discreteness may prevail in another's list of priority. For me, it is still early days so time will tell, though I have a good feeling this lens will be in my kit for a long while. I had the same feeling with the 35FLE and 50lux ASPH and they're still here after several years.

Edited March 11, 2018 by chasdfg

[Ko.Fe.]

I never tried the 28 Elmarit ASPH with the EVF (I just sold it, because I can't justify two 28mms, though that's just me cause I couldn't justify 2 35mms either even if I preferred 35), though when I shot with it on the M240 I didn't note of an inability to hit the infinity hard stop shy of infinity, nor did I notice any back focus. I'm pretty sure of this. I'm quite particular about focus when I purchase a lens so I know exactly how it performs and so I can compensate any of these focus issues in the field, or send the lens and/or camera for calibration. Thereafter I'm not particular because I know what parameters to keep an eye on.

 

 

I believe anyone can use any 28 and come up with very nice images since it's more about composition. Nevertheless I do concede that smaller glass or kits do have their advantages for street shooting. I think a 28 Elmarit ASPH is less "intimidating" than a 28lux, and a 28lux less intimidating compared to a 28 1.4D/E Nikon, and so on. I've seen lovely pics taken with an 18mm on a Fuji too  - that Fuji 18mm on an X-T10/20 is really, really small. The small size of the 28 Elmarit ASPH does inspire. It is a very street-sy lens in that respect.

 

I like the 1.4 on the 28lux for lower light shots, for the rendering it gives at 1.4, for the ability to shoot it stopped down to give some context and then to turn the aperture ring to isolate subjects (granted, it is a 28mm and there is only so much isolation it can do). If I were to have one 28mm for portraits, travel and street, this would be it. Portability and discreteness may prevail in another's list of priority. For me, it is still early days so time will tell, though I have a good feeling this lens will be in my kit for a long while. I had the same feeling with the 35FLE and 50lux ASPH and they're still here after several years.

 

Intimidating is the term of amateurs. It is our internal and personal fear. Winogrand was as confident with tiny Canon 28 2.8 as with Canadian Horsy 28 2.8 Elmarit-M 28 2.8 and matching grand saddle, sorry, hood on it.

They difference for street photography which makes difference for me after practising in street photography for decade is the focus tab. Especially with f1.4. Any lens without focus tab is useless for me for documentary and street photography.

But each case is different. My photography moment, open time frame,  often lasts two-three seconds. I can't use lens without focus tab for it. It takes way too long to figure out where to rotate this thing and after short period of time it is anyoung factor.  

 

I have no problems to use flash for low light. I learned it from Winogrand photography. And it is not a problem for portraits in particular with TTL flash. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Ko.Fe.

[Rob L]

"I'm interested in the new versions of the Elmarit and Summicron. How do they compare at f2.8?"

Most say the Elmarit has more contrast and that the Summicron has a softer rendering. I have a hard time telling much difference. The Summicron costs almost twice as much, but if I had to pick one, it would be the Summicron.