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X Vario mis-focusing?


goatsby

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With the posting of my X Vario review, I have received many helpful comments and insights about the X Vario. One that caught my attention was about the focusing. I have always attributed soft images to operator error or a simple mis-focus, but after reading the comments and testing over the past week it seems that the issue may be more than that and a trip to Leica may be in order. Please see the attached photo; it is a crop of a photo taken of my daughter where the focus confirmation was green and locked, with spot focus on the left eye. There are other photos like this at varied distances that have been the same result. 

 

I have read a few old posts but did not see any conclusions from those that sent their cameras in to Leica. Can anyone comment on this or know if this is something that can be adjusted? Any thoughts would be helpful.

 

Thanks!

 

Adam   

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Thanks for the reply, Gary. I actually use manual focusing when I need to *get* the shot, so would assume that manual focusing would have had better focus. If I can get the kids to still still long enough its worth a try to get a shot with auto and manual each. 

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Thanks for the reply, Gary. I actually use manual focusing when I need to *get* the shot, so would assume that manual focusing would have had better focus. If I can get the kids to still still long enough its worth a try to get a shot with auto and manual each. 

 

I agree with Gary, my X 113 has awful auto focus, although other users believe it is okay - I suppose it depends where you came from, I came from a Nikon D300s, and used a DX 35mm 1.8 lens most of the time, so my focus was pretty nailed on in most lights. The X is less dependable, as effectively taught me to manual focus, and so I no longer rely on the autofocus, but shoot it like an M user.. so start at infinity and crank back til the patch is in focus, unless its already in focus - I also shoot using manual settings, so never use anything auto, ISO, Shutter or Aperture.. thats my way.

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Fast Raw Viewer reports, that the focus is on the hair, somewhat nearer to the camera than the eye.

Focusshift?

Jan

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Adam, there is a problem which has never been resolved. It is significant that a new XV has not appeared. I was caught out badly after assuming it was user error and returned the camera to my UK dealer with accompanying evidence. At first he thought there was no problem but agreed to send the camera to Leica in Germany. The service department tested the camera and returned the camera to me declaring the camera performed within specifications. They enclosed a CD with copies of their test results. I felt deflated and disappointed.

 

However, when I examined their test files, a few clearly showed evidence of faulty focusing. So back went the camera to Germany with a statement of my analysis of their test results. Silence! I received a loan camera from my dealer which proved better than mine but still prone to occasional errors.

 

My camera eventually returned with a new processor, but same story. I was then sent a replacement camera which performed a little better.

 

Why do I still have this camera with its occasionally unreliable AF? A good question. Well I have learned to operate it with greater care. It is also highly suitable for a range of horticulture and close-up photography. I routinely check important shots while on location and repeat any suspects where possible. For landscapes, I set focus manually by scale - infinity or nearby. I am less capable judging manual focus on the LCD or through the EVF. With experience I have learned to live with its foibles and appreciate its excellent results over 98% of the time.

 

Reference your portrait picture, such marginal focus displacement is not typical of my experience of AF errors on the XV. With respect, placing a focus spot on a human eye is seriously challenging with the XV. If handheld, slight body movement after seeing the green light is sufficient to displace the focus point as shown in your example. In such a situation, I would shoot a short burst to enhance my prospects of obtaining desired expression and focus.

 

Finally, like many, I hope Leica will release a fixed zoom lens version of the new CL. I do not want another camera system with sensor cleaning issues.

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attachicon.giffocus.jpeg

 

Fast Raw Viewer reports, that the focus is on the hair, somewhat nearer to the camera than the eye.

Focusshift?

Jan

Jan, interesting tool you have. I have never heard of Fast Raw Viewer, although it is a post-event method. In Adam's portrait you can see the relative clarity of hair strands, certainly viewing the file at 100% magnification.

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Adam,

 

May I make a few helpful comments and suggestions?  After years of optically testing lenses and camera AF systems (due to specific and often demanding requirements of mine), I would not use a human, animal or any moving subject as a test target to determine a camera or lens's focusing accuracy.

 

I would start with a series of say aluminum cans like soda or beer cans (don't drink the beer while testing or you are bound to have a lot of focusing anomalies :) ).  Stagger them out in a straight line at a 45 degree angle with fairly close spacing of the cans.  There are of course lens align tools to determine mis focusing to make things easier.  for a camera or lens to misfocus, generally means it front or back focuses or the Af sensor in the given camera is too broad and doesn't always accurately pic of the precise spot you focused on.  The Leica S often has had the exact same issue you have noticed in your XV.

My comments are generalities to testing and beyond this initial test I described, it's then important to determine how precise the camera's sensor is in its coverage of the test target or does it more broadly cover a greater area.  Often times the sensor is not aligned with the viewfinders green box's location.  

 

Leica has often found S cameras that were sent in for Af errors, well within spec and returned such cameras, only to have the user continue to have Af errors.  It's apparent all of these Leica cameras are unlike the Nikon/Cannon type cameras we are used to, af wise and knowing the parameters to get proper focus, is the key to its success.

 

As I mentioned in your thread of your review of the X Vario, I more often use the camera in af mode and have been pleasantly surprised regarding its accuracy. Then again there might be some variation from body to body.  Hard to say.

 

Dave 

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I was having some issues with focusing my Pentax K-P so I got this https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1148790-REG/focus_pyramid_fp_1111_autofocus_lens_calibration_tool.html to see if it was a back or front-focus problem.  It was.  Fortunately, the Pentax has a setting that allows for correcting back or front focus.  I haven't tried it on the X Vario but I'm thinking it would be worth a look.  I tend to use manual focus most of the time with good results.

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Jan, interesting tool you have. I have never heard of Fast Raw Viewer, although it is a post-event method. In Adam's portrait you can see the relative clarity of hair strands, certainly viewing the file at 100% magnification.

 

FRV is very useful. It evaluates the buffer in the graphic board of my laptop. A simulation of AF with the contrast method.

 

 

"Leica has often found S cameras that were sent in for Af errors, well within spec and returned such cameras"

That means, that it is either a user error (user aimed wrong) or a property of the system (focus shift).

Focus shift is the change of the focus plane depending on the f/stop.

I assume, that the camera measures the AF wide open and thereafter changes the f/stop for the correct exposure.

No problem wide open or if closed at a stronger f/stop (depth of field).

My theory.

Jan

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Jan

 

As I mentioned in my post (2 posts above yours), the peimarily reason it alpeared the Leica S misfocused is due to the sensor in the viewfinder, covering a substantially largwr area than what it indicates. In other words, the sensor appears to be focused aay on someones face 10 feet away but the sensor area is ao much larger, it picks up a part of the background subject at infinity. Hence it focuses on the object at infinity or behind the subject and not the subject itself. Thia is very different than front or rear focusing.

 

It was mentuoned by another user in this thread about their Pentax camera front or back focusing. This was very common with Pentax digital SLR's in the days before they incorporated the user ability to adjust for this. I used to work integrally with Pentax USA in such issues. Their cameras were highly sensitive to misfocusing under stage lighting where the wavelength of the lights fooled their DSLR's. It was a nightmare and took many generations of their hardware to resolve.

 

Dave (D&A)

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I was having some issues with focusing my Pentax K-P so I got this https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1148790-REG/focus_pyramid_fp_1111_autofocus_lens_calibration_tool.html to see if it was a back or front-focus problem.  It was.  Fortunately, the Pentax has a setting that allows for correcting back or front focus.  I haven't tried it on the X Vario but I'm thinking it would be worth a look.  I tend to use manual focus most of the time with good results.

I think there is a difference between marginal errors, front and rear, which leaves sharpness not in the desired plane; and AF errors with the X Vario. In my experience and also with those who published evidence of faulty focusing, nothing in the frame was sharp despite the camera green light confirming focus glowing. It is impossible to determine where in frame was thought to be in focus by the AF mechanism. Worse, it would strike randomly without warning. When preoccupied with the chosen subject, it is easy to overlook checking most recent shots for sharpness. I now avoid 'rushing' AF and always check really important shots or ones not easily repeated while travelling. My measures have materially reduced my negative experiences, but not eliminated them. Be vigilant!

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Thanks to everyone for their replies and input! I sent an email to Leica USA and they said it should be sent in to be checked out. Can't hurt (except for losing my camera for an undetermined about of time) and maybe they can open it up and get the dust off the sensor while they are in there. I will report back when they get back to me.  

 

Adam 

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Thanks to everyone for their replies and input! I sent an email to Leica USA and they said it should be sent in to be checked out. Can't hurt (except for losing my camera for an undetermined about of time) and maybe they can open it up and get the dust off the sensor while they are in there. I will report back when they get back to me.  

 

Adam 

 

Let us all know how you get on with this, as I am curious.

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  • 1 month later...

Same experience here with my XVario and X.

Both are superb cameras, but there are always a bunch of "not so sharp and a lihtly out of focus" pictures in a days worth of pictures.

Returned my first used XVario because of this behavior.

 

Bought a second used one some time later which is betterm but still prone to AF errors.

 

I'll have to pay more attention while shooting with both cameras and I check focus immediately after taking a shot worth keeping.

 

Will check in my next holidays, if the T will do the same or if the AF is better than on the XVario and X.

 

But it is good to know that this is a more common issue and I'm, respectively my cameras are not the only one with this problem.

 

 

Martin

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have switched to using the spot focusing instead of one-point and have had much better focus accuracy. But, it does come at the cost of slower focusing and more missed focuses (not mis-focus, the red box ones) especially when the light gets dim.

 

PS I did not wind up sending my camera to Leica as I didn’t want to be without it for a long time and switching focus modes seemed to help a good bit.

Edited by goatsby
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And (no disrespect meant) I suspect Leica themselves would not be able to rectify it anyway, it's an old camera, old technology, and been superseded a few times over.

Still love mine, and have resisted replacing it, a few times.

Gary

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I have switched to using the spot focusing instead of one-point and have had much better focus accuracy. But, it does come at the cost of slower focusing and more missed focuses (not mis-focus, the red box ones) especially when the light gets dim.

PS I did not wind up sending my camera to Leica as I didn’t want to be without it for a long time and switching focus modes seemed to help a good bit.

I understand your approach to achieving consistent focusing accuracy; mine, currently, is rather different. Mine is a more flexible technique.

 

Spot focusing is essential for highlighting a face in a crowd, or specific florets within a cluster of emerging blossom buds. But it is a technique calling for considerable skill and time if striving for a consistently high success rate. When observing a sea of faces, I sometimes prefer to change focus mode (easy to do) and pick multi-zone. Often that will give good results, but not always. When that mode fails, I switch quickly to manual mode with zoom set on 70mm, resetting as necessary. But I cannot claim 100% success with MF on the XV, compared with the Q which has higher resolution viewfinder imaging or rangefinder solutions. As always, I need to hone my skills on a regular basis depending on the camera in hand.

 

Despite old technology, my XV is frequently my camera of choice, particularly in the close-focus domain.

Edited by wda
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