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Starwolfy

LEICA, we need IBIS !

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I doubt you really know that. Leica and Panasonic obviously have a long history of collaboration and cooperation (including making a generous loan to the pre-Kaufmann company when it was last in danger of going bust) but I suspect you aren't privy to the actual agreements that the two companies have in place. There are many commercial reasons why Panasonic might choose to keep their IBIS technology to themselves or they might have offered it but Leica balked at the price.

I really know Not the content obviously, but the existence.

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once a leather half case or whatever is added..who cares about a few mm ?

I'm going to leave this here....

 

leica_sony.jpg

 

Remember, the A6500 has IBIS and a tilting screen, both of which adds to the thickness.

 

Are those extra mm's a deal breaker?

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No I wouldn't. Been there done that with adapting lenses on Sony's and Fuji's. I purchased the CL hoping to use my M lenses but what I quickly found out was that I missed IBIS while capturing the image and while focusing. The 50mm Summilux-M was at least twice as difficult to focus on the CL compared to my M10, not only because the equivalent FL became 75mm but because the CL is lighter and smaller than the M, which makes it harder to hold steady. The CL would have made an awesome companion to my M10 if it had IBIS and worked better with my 50mm Summilux-M and 90mm Elmarit-M.  I thought about keeping it around for the 11-23 but in the end it wasn't worth keeping a camera around just for a wide zoom so I decided to reacquire the WATE instead. As I've mentioned repetitively, I really wanted to like the camera and gave it it's fair shake. It's frustrating that Leica skimped on such a basic feature (by today's standards)

 

I sympathize of course but i have no issue to focus my 50/1.4 asph or longer fast lenses (90/2, 75/1.4, 135/3.4) on the CL. I must have steady hands i guess but i would not be interested in a thicker CL personally. The size of the CL is yet on the higher side compared to other compact cameras and i don't want it to be bigger at all. YMMV.

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OK I have a question. We know: 

 

1. That IBIS can cause the sensor to deflect as much as a +/-5mm from its original plane. 

 

2. The angle of incident light upon the sensor is critical for corner to corner sharpness. This is even more so for Leica because of the short distance from the exit pupil to the sensor plane. Leica realize this and have specified the thinnest sensor stack on the market, along with special microlenses. 

 

3. The thickness of the glass in front of the sensor (i.e. the sensor stack) is also critical for sensor performance. Roger Cicala at lensrentals demonstrated as much in his experiments. If the sensor deflects, it will effectively present a shorter path on one end of the sensor and a longer path on the other.

 

If so, what would be the effect of a sensor deflecting to counteract movement on corner to corner sharpness? If a sensor were to deflect +5mm on one corner (and therefore -5mm on the other corner), this would introduce a pretty severe difference in the angle of incident light from one side of the image to the other. Would a camera equipped with such a sensor sacrifice corner to corner sharpness in favour of counteracting motion blur? 

 

I don't know the answer, nor am I aware of any experiments that may have been conducted. But I am curious if anybody knows. 

 

Maybe I should email lensrentals. Roger Cicala seems pretty interested in sensors. 

Edited by Keith_W

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This was one of the reasons Fuji gave as why they were not (originally) pursuing IBIS, along with their small lens mount aperture. 

 

Leica M lens design does not lend itself to in camera IS, but there is less of an issue with long lenses ..... but then you have reduced effectiveness because of the large movements required. 

 

None of this subject is as simple and straightforward as you might imagine once you delve deeper into it.....

Edited by thighslapper

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Would you use your M wides on the A6500? I do it on my A7s mod because its sensor stack has been modded by Kolari Vision but i would not even think of it on a stock Sony. A modded A6500 would have interested me though.

I have used my 28mm cron on Nex6 many a times when corner to corner sharpness is not needed. Except landscape, in every situation.

 

This one is in good light (f2, 1/30sec, ISO200) but I will shoot it on A6500 knowing that if needed, I can shoot it at 1/5sec.

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I have used my 28mm cron on Nex6 many a times when corner to corner sharpness is not needed. Except landscape, in every situation. [...]

 

Well i've shot some good pics with my Fuji X-E2 i believe but i'm not good at cropping and the CL doesn't play in the same league to be honest. I mean with M lenses as the X-E2 gives very good results with Fuji lenses otherwise. 

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Just for those who may not be aware... There is a solution for many situations where IBIS would be beneficial.  It won't work for all subjects and all situations and it certainly has downsides, but keep this in mind for those situations where it is important.

 

If:

  • Your image is static (no motion for a full second)
  • You don't mind a little work in Photoshop or equivalent
  • You are being forced to a higher ISO than you would like in order to get the shutter speed that will let you handhold reliably

Then:

  • You can get essentially the same benefits as IBIS (in a few ways, even better than IBIS) 

Try the following process.  

  1. Push the ISO high enough that you can hand hold reliably.  
  2. Put the camera on "continuous high speed" drive.  
  3. As steady as you can (but hand held), take 10 or so pictures of your subject without moving between frames.  This should take about 1 second, hence the requirement that your subject be static for a second.
  4. Open the images into Photoshop or equivalent with all sharpening and all noise reduction turned off turned off
  5. Cut and paste all the images into a single image as separate layers
  6. Resize the image up by a factor of 1.5 or so (in order to allow sub-pixel interpolation in the next step)
  7. Select all the layers in Photoshop, and then run "Edit/Autoalign Layers" to force Photoshop to line them all up precisely
  8. Change the opacity of the various layers.  The bottom layer should be 100%, the next layer 50%, the next layer 33% then 25% then 20%, etc.  It's just a factor of 1/n.  This isn't the only way to do this task--you can convert to a smart object as well, but it is often CPU intensive to the point that the manual process is faster.
  9. Merge all your layers together
  10. Run "Smart Sharpen" to taste--on the up-res'd version I like something in the 300%/1 pixel range.
  11. Crop any ragged edges off your image (from the slight movement between frames)
  12. Resize back down to your original resolution

That's it.  With my computer using ten or so 24 megapixel images this process takes 10 to 15 minutes, so it's not super quick but it's not something that should take all day either.  What you should find is that the noise from the high ISO setting is gone.  Your resolution should be about the same as any single shot (depending on the subject, it might even be a bit higher).  This also has the advantage over IBIS of being able to completely remove color aliasing for high-frequency details.  

 

Here is an example I just tried in my office.  It's a shot of my desktop made with the Leica CL and an adapted 21mm SEM at f/5.6.  The focus point was roughly the center of the computer screen.

 

Here is the overall shot...

 

 

And here is a crop from a single frame shot at ISO 640, 1/40s (just on the edge of what I can reliably hand hold with a 32mm equivalent lens if I don't want any motion blur at all)...

 

 

And here is a crop using the method I described above.  The ten frames were taken at ISO 1600 and 1/100s exposure, so no question about whether I could handhold.

 

 

Obviously, this only works if you really do have a fairly steady subject.  You're going to need a full second of non-motion.  And it's a certainly a real pain compared to just having IBIS.  But you will get back most of (almost all of) the dynamic range that you lost to the higher ISO, and you will often be able to get three or four stops of noise improvement.  It really does work.  There are even some tricks you can use to address motion if it is limited.  Yes, I'd rather have IBIS, but don't give up on taking a particular picture you want just because you think you will either have camera shake or too much noise.  Sometimes there are other options.

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Just for those who may not be aware... There is a solution for many situations where IBIS would be beneficial.  It won't work for all subjects and all situations and it certainly has downsides, but keep this in mind for those situations where it is important.

 

If:

  • Your image is static (no motion for a full second)
  • You don't mind a little work in Photoshop or equivalent
  • You are being forced to a higher ISO than you would like in order to get the shutter speed that will let you handhold reliably

Then:

  • You can get essentially the same benefits as IBIS (in a few ways, even better than IBIS) 

Try the following process.  

  1. Push the ISO high enough that you can hand hold reliably.  
  2. Put the camera on "continuous high speed" drive.  
  3. As steady as you can (but hand held), take 10 or so pictures of your subject without moving between frames.  This should take about 1 second, hence the requirement that your subject be static for a second.
  4. Open the images into Photoshop or equivalent with all sharpening and all noise reduction turned off turned off
  5. Cut and paste all the images into a single image as separate layers
  6. Resize the image up by a factor of 1.5 or so (in order to allow sub-pixel interpolation in the next step)
  7. Select all the layers in Photoshop, and then run "Edit/Autoalign Layers" to force Photoshop to line them all up precisely
  8. Change the opacity of the various layers.  The bottom layer should be 100%, the next layer 50%, the next layer 33% then 25% then 20%, etc.  It's just a factor of 1/n.  This isn't the only way to do this task--you can convert to a smart object as well, but it is often CPU intensive to the point that the manual process is faster.
  9. Merge all your layers together
  10. Run "Smart Sharpen" to taste--on the up-res'd version I like something in the 300%/1 pixel range.
  11. Crop any ragged edges off your image (from the slight movement between frames)
  12. Resize back down to your original resolution

That's it.  With my computer using ten or so 24 megapixel images this process takes 10 to 15 minutes, so it's not super quick but it's not something that should take all day either.  What you should find is that the noise from the high ISO setting is gone.  Your resolution should be about the same as any single shot (depending on the subject, it might even be a bit higher).  This also has the advantage over IBIS of being able to completely remove color aliasing for high-frequency details.  

 

Here is an example I just tried in my office.  It's a shot of my desktop made with the Leica CL and an adapted 21mm SEM at f/5.6.  The focus point was roughly the center of the computer screen.

 

Here is the overall shot...

 

JSW2021115.jpg

 

And here is a crop from a single frame shot at ISO 640, 1/40s (just on the edge of what I can reliably hand hold with a 32mm equivalent lens if I don't want any motion blur at all)...

 

JSW2021126.jpg

 

And here is a crop using the method I described above.  The ten frames were taken at ISO 1600 and 1/100s exposure, so no question about whether I could handhold.

 

JSW2021115-Crop.jpg

 

Obviously, this only works if you really do have a fairly steady subject.  You're going to need a full second of non-motion.  And it's a certainly a real pain compared to just having IBIS.  But you will get back most of (almost all of) the dynamic range that you lost to the higher ISO, and you will often be able to get three or four stops of noise improvement.  It really does work.  There are even some tricks you can use to address motion if it is limited.  Yes, I'd rather have IBIS, but don't give up on taking a particular picture you want just because you think you will either have camera shake or too much noise.  Sometimes there are other options.

Long time ago (when 800 ISO was the highest setting with push 1600 in my camera), I had used this technique with success to remove high ISO noise. However, pretty soon I stopped using it because of the processing time involved and the real gain of removing noise is not that much in the print (sometimes noise looks good too). And as you said, the subject has to be quote static, which is hardly the case. Easier solution is to carry a light carbon tripod.

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Long time ago (when 800 ISO was the highest setting with push 1600 in my camera), I had used this technique with success to remove high ISO noise. However, pretty soon I stopped using it because of the processing time involved and the real gain of removing noise is not that much in the print (sometimes noise looks good too). And as you said, the subject has to be quote static, which is hardly the case. Easier solution is to carry a light carbon tripod.

 

 

Yes, a tripod, obviously, will let you run base ISO and a longer exposure time with a static subject.  However, the tripod won't help with moire, so if you have a subject where you are likely to run into color aliasing from the Bayer array, this can still be helpful. Plus, I take my CL with me almost everywhere and certainly don't carry a tripod around, so it can be helpful when you run into unexpected situations.  No question it's time consuming, though, so I wouldn't use it casually.  It definitely works, though. It managed to restore the texture in the pain on the wall in the crop I posted above, rather than just showing a noisy mess.  Also, don't underestimate the benefits of getting back dynamic range even in situations where the noise itself won't be visible in a print.  You get more flexibility to pull out shadow detail using this technique.  I don't use it frequently, but when I need it the technique is invaluable.

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Yes, a tripod, obviously, will let you run base ISO and a longer exposure time with a static subject. However, the tripod won't help with moire, so if you have a subject where you are likely to run into color aliasing from the Bayer array, this can still be helpful. Plus, I take my CL with me almost everywhere and certainly don't carry a tripod around, so it can be helpful when you run into unexpected situations. No question it's time consuming, though, so I wouldn't use it casually. It definitely works, though. It managed to restore the texture in the pain on the wall in the crop I posted above, rather than just showing a noisy mess. Also, don't underestimate the benefits of getting back dynamic range even in situations where the noise itself won't be visible in a print. You get more flexibility to pull out shadow detail using this technique. I don't use it frequently, but when I need it the technique is invaluable.

What about creating Photoshop action and simply let it run. At least it will remove the manual intervention and the process can become reuseable.

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Only real down-side to that is that the auto alignment sometimes doesn't do exactly what I want it to.  I often end up "nudging" layers by a pixel in one direction or another based on whatever content I consider the most critical in the frame.  If you decide to just trust auto align (and there's nothing wrong with that), a Photoshop action could cover all of this pretty easily.

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And if all fails, use Focus Magic to remove motion blur.

Never tried that but I had much hope from photoshop's shake removal feature. I was disappointed bigly.

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Focus Magic is basically a forensic program. It works well but the results can be a bit synthetic.

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Focus Magic is basically a forensic program. It works well but the results can be a bit synthetic.

 

 

What do you mean by synthetic?  Unnatural?  Waxy looking?

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once a leather half case or whatever is added..who cares about a few mm ?

 

Yes, that's precisely my point.

Size is not really a factor when considering IBIS with these smaller sensors.

 

The main reasons not to include IBIS in a 2018 APS-C camera are: 

1) budget constraints (or skimping as I like to call it)

2) "for the sake of image quality" (according to Fuji)

3) other philosophical reasons

Basically, a bunch of baloney.

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I did, several times. Write more clearly. If you're addressing someone specifically, indicate that. Thank you. 

Perhaps it it the reader and not the writer. Do read my post again.

 

My post was in direct response to the two quotes and "you" was singular. 

So where does the generalization come from?

 

Doesn't matter anyway. We have both expressed our point of view. 

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What do you mean by synthetic? Unnatural? Waxy looking?

I’ll post an example later. It works in a different way than other programs as it actually shifts pixels instead of enhancing contrast. Hard to describe, I would call the effect -when overdone- embossed. With a bit of luck, it can save a shot.

 

As I am on skiing holiday right now, I have very limited WiFi

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