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Starwolfy

LEICA, we need IBIS !

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This is exactly what people mean when they say others are making excuses for Leica.  The company has come very close to shutting down multiple times and has survived only because they modernized the the technology.

But only by adopting technology that they deemed relevant.

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I did not; I said that if my GX8 could it, so should a Leica. (but not an M, that is a rangefinder) Please don't put words into my mouth. LBB = Leica-Bashing Brigade, I suppose? If it does not suit you, don't buy. Moaning is wearisome.

 

Sorry that I did not go back through your dozens of replies in MANY other threads about putting things into the M where you rebuff them for "Making the M bigger"and get an exact quote. Guilty as charged.,

Anyone who spends enough time in the forums knows you are Charter Member of the LKB.

 

Instead of spending money on a "boutique hotel" at Wetzlar Park, and one-off ruby throated encrusted Special Editions maybe they should put more money into R & D and Service so you can get your repairs back in weeks instead of MONTHS!!! and maybe we would have IBIS by now.

 

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Do I need to remind this group that it was not too long ago that Leica said that a digital M was impossible?  The best way to accomplish the "impossible" is to tell an engineer it can't be done. She will find a way.

 

 

An interesting comparison is the Sony a6000 (without IBIS) and the Sony a6500 (with IBIS).  The a6500's handgrip is 8mm deeper, otherwise the two cameras' dimensions are identical.

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Sorry that I did not go back through your dozens of replies in MANY other threads about putting things into the M where you rebuff them for "Making the M bigger"and get an exact quote. Guilty as charged.,

Anyone who spends enough time in the forums knows you are Charter Member of the LKB.

 

Instead of spending money on a "boutique hotel" at Wetzlar Park, and one-off ruby throated encrusted Special Editions maybe they should put more money into R & D and Service so you can get your repairs back in weeks instead of MONTHS!!! and maybe we would have IBIS by now.

 

 

 

 

Sorry mate, you won't get the fight you are spoiling for. Just don't make things up about people - there's a good chap.

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Do I need to remind this group that it was not too long ago that Leica said that a digital M was impossible?  The best way to accomplish the "impossible" is to tell an engineer it can't be done. She will find a way.

 

 

An interesting comparison is the Sony a6000 (without IBIS) and the Sony a6500 (with IBIS).  The a6500's handgrip is 8mm deeper, otherwise the two cameras' dimensions are identical.

"Impossible with present-day technology." Half-quotes are misleading.

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The market didn't The company survived.

All others, innovative as they might have been (remember Robot) did not.

Nothing succeeds but success. How it was achieved is less relevant.

 

 

BTW, aren't you contradicting yourself here?

 

{...}The company has come very close to shutting down multiple times and has survived only because they modernized the the technology.

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A personal note from one who has essential (familiar) tremor. You know, shaking hands, head, not alcoholic tremors. The kind of tremor that makes taking photos difficult. I have it and it sucks. Without meds I cannot even type or write,

 

The drug Propranolol used off-label is very successful.

 

Originally they found the drug to benefit blood pressure, then found it worked because it stifled our 'fight or flight' reaction. Actors prone to stage fright find it very helpful to suppress the physical effect so that they can perform without the primitive physiological influence.

 

Believe me, it works.

Edited by pico

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They didn't The company survived. All others, innovative as they might have been (remember Robot) did not.

 

Leica resisted TTL metering.  Leica resisted digital.  Leica resisted the SLR.  Leica resisted the zoom lens.  Leica resisted AF.  Leica survived because they adopted these technologies.

 

 

"Impossible with present-day technology." Half-quotes are misleading.

 

You've made my point for me.  They don't have to use existing technology.  Use the technology under development.  Sony found a way to fit IBIS in the a6000-sized body.  Leica eventually found a way to put a TTL light meter in an M4-sized body. 

The new SL Summicrons don't have OIS.  Don't you think these lenses would benefit from IBIS?  The happy new owner of my old Sony a7II was delighted by the IBIS's performance with his 135mm APO-M.  It's not just big bulky supertelephotos that benefit from stabilization; compact M lenses as well as the new SL Summicrons do too.

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I'm going to leave this here....

 

 

Remember, the A6500 has IBIS and a tilting screen, both of which adds to the thickness.

 

Are those extra mm's a deal breaker?

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Leica resisted TTL metering.  Leica resisted digital.  Leica resisted the SLR.  Leica resisted the zoom lens.  Leica resisted AF.  Leica survived because they adopted these technologies.

 

 

You've made my point for me.  They don't have to use existing technology.  Use the technology under development.  Sony found a way to fit IBIS in the a6000-sized body.  Leica eventually found a way to put a TTL light meter in an M4-sized body. 

The new SL Summicrons don't have OIS.  Don't you think these lenses would benefit from IBIS?  The happy new owner of my old Sony a7II was delighted by the IBIS's performance with his 135mm APO-M.  It's not just big bulky supertelephotos that benefit from stabilization; compact M lenses as well as the new SL Summicrons do too.

 

Not a valid point, Doug. Leica has full access to Panasonic technology, in fact most of the electronics inside their present-day cameras are by Panasonic, and Panasonic  has industry-leading IBIS in their cameras.

 

Leica survived because they adopted these technologies at their own pace. Where is Minolta now? The first SLR to use AF, remember. TTL? I seem to recall a Leica R3 - Minolta again, Leica built one of the first digital cameras, the S1, and adopted Fuji and Panasonic cameras at a very early stage. The DMR remains the only 135 size digital back ever built. I see little resistance.

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Oh dear .... this is all getting a bit personal and acrimonious.

 

I think you will find most of the longstanding posters here are more than happy to criticise Leica and have done so numerous times in the past. Many of us have been engaged in beta testing for both M, Q, SL etc as a result of voicing concerns and opinions. 

 

I have nothing against IBIS and OIS ...... they would be handy to have ...... but again I would point out that Leica has a specific philosophy with regard to their products of the 'less is  more' concept and it will take more than just market pressure to implement features they feel are not necessary. Their definition of 'necessary' may not be yours either. 

 

Also Leica is a veritable minnow in the world of photography compared to the sharks like Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Fuji and Panasonic. They will never have the short R&D cycles of their competitors. 

 

I am not a Leica apologist ..... just a Leica realist. 

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[...] I have nothing against IBIS and OIS ...... they would be handy to have ...... but again I would point out that Leica has a specific philosophy with regard to their products of the 'less is  more' concept and it will take more than just market pressure to implement features they feel are not necessary. [...]

 

I agree for a compact camera like the CL but the lack of IBIS in the SL is another story. Just Leica being late in the party if you ask me.

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Let's cool down.

 

My opinion is that you can add OIS/IBIS without touching Leica at its core value.

OIS/IBIS is an electronical feature. We are not talking about abandoning the simplistic / raw way to use our Leicas.

We are talking about adding a usefull feature that is fairly common in all modern cameras and which just add "comfort". Purity die hards could just deactivate it in the menu ans forget about it.

 

I remember myself few years ago at the time of the M8/M9 justifiying the poor quality screen by the fact that I don't really need a screen anyway...because I use my camera like a film camera etc.

Frankly, this sounded like true and valid points with the use I made from this cameras at the time. But if I look about the display you have now on cameras like the TL or CL...sorry but there is no going back for me.

Of course this display is not a key part in the picture process but it is a matter of comfort and using a camera that has is differences but which is also in is time.

 

Like I said about IBIS etc...It ads a comfort that I am not forced to use.

Answering this by saying that if I want IBIS or OIS then I just buy another camera from abother brand aounds about idiotic to me. I am sure Leica can, like it is doing theae days, go in more modern direction without losing its core values.

 

Best

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[...] Remember, the A6500 has IBIS and a tilting screen, both of which adds to the thickness.

Are those extra mm's a deal breaker?

 

Would you use your M wides on the A6500? I do it on my A7s mod because its sensor stack has been modded by Kolari Vision but i would not even think of it on a stock Sony. A modded A6500 would have interested me though.

Edited by lct

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Not a valid point, Doug. Leica has full access to Panasonic technology, in fact most of the electronics inside their present-day cameras are by Panasonic, and Panasonic  has industry-leading IBIS in their cameras.

 

Leica survived because they adopted these technologies at their own pace. Where is Minolta now? The first SLR to use AF, remember. TTL? I seem to recall a Leica R3 - Minolta again, Leica built one of the first digital cameras, the S1, and adopted Fuji and Panasonic cameras at a very early stage. The DMR remains the only 135 size digital back ever built. I see little resistance.

 

I fail to comprehend your "logic".

 

Leica's survival has been by the thinnest of threads on multiple occasions when they were late to the market, and the most recent recovery was when a wealthy individual with a passion for the brand invested a large sum in modernizing the technology.

Edited by wildlightphoto

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I don't have a dog in the fight regarding IBIS but Jaap's essential claim that Leica's conservative approach is the key to their longevity is laughable.

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Leica has full access to Panasonic technology, in fact most of the electronics inside their present-day cameras are by Panasonic, and Panasonic  has industry-leading IBIS in their cameras.

 

I doubt you really know that. Leica and Panasonic obviously have a long history of collaboration and cooperation (including making a generous loan to the pre-Kaufmann company when it was last in danger of going bust) but I suspect you aren't privy to the actual agreements that the two companies have in place. There are many commercial reasons why Panasonic might choose to keep their IBIS technology to themselves or they might have offered it but Leica balked at the price.

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Would you use your M wides on the A6500? I do it on my A7s mod because its sensor stack has been modded by Kolari Vision but i would not even think of it on a stock Sony. A modded A6500 would have interested me though.

 

No I wouldn't. Been there done that with adapting lenses on Sony's and Fuji's. I purchased the CL hoping to use my M lenses but what I quickly found out was that I missed IBIS while capturing the image and while focusing. The 50mm Summilux-M was at least twice as difficult to focus on the CL compared to my M10, not only because the equivalent FL became 75mm but because the CL is lighter and smaller than the M, which makes it harder to hold steady. The CL would have made an awesome companion to my M10 if it had IBIS and worked better with my 50mm Summilux-M and 90mm Elmarit-M.  I thought about keeping it around for the 11-23 but in the end it wasn't worth keeping a camera around just for a wide zoom so I decided to reacquire the WATE instead. As I've mentioned repetitively, I really wanted to like the camera and gave it it's fair shake. It's frustrating that Leica skimped on such a basic feature (by today's standards)

Edited by Mr.Q

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I doubt you really know that. Leica and Panasonic obviously have a long history of collaboration and cooperation (including making a generous loan to the pre-Kaufmann company when it was last in danger of going bust) but I suspect you aren't privy to the actual agreements that the two companies have in place. There are many commercial reasons why Panasonic might choose to keep their IBIS technology to themselves or they might have offered it but Leica balked at the price.

 

Well ....... there you have a possible reason why it currently doesn't exist .... if a small company like Leica has to develop it from scratch then it will take a while. One sign that it may be a consideration is the abnormally large L mount size .... which is really bigger than necessary. Some of the issues with implementing IBIS in other brands has been the problems caused by a small mount aperture. Maybe this has future developments in mind .......

 

It's all a bit academic anyway as I very much doubt anyone at Leica will tell us what their future plans are .......

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