Fritz Posted January 16, 2018 Share #81 Posted January 16, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) If you wish Leica finally introduce IBIS in its next TL/CL line my opinion is that we should show them we want it. Just mark +1 is you wish it ! +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 16, 2018 Posted January 16, 2018 Hi Fritz, Take a look here LEICA, we need IBIS !. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ozytripper Posted January 17, 2018 Share #82 Posted January 17, 2018 I'm an archaic old fart who was around before TTL metering, TTL flash, etc, existed at all. I like what I like because I've found it useful for making my photos, not because it is new or hip, or everyone else has it, or it's just neat. As I've said before, image stabilization, either in-lens or in-body, is great for what it's useful for ... which is not everything but is a certain amount of what I want/need/use it for. I don't mind if they fit it as long as it doesn't ruin the camera in other ways, as so many feature-filled devices are ruined. So many of today's lovely features just get in the way, ultimately, and make it harder to make photographs that matter! So before you yutes go about casting ridiculous hyper-generalizations about us olde folks, perhaps it would be wise to read what we write and actually understand it... If you don't, ask questions. Ramarren, First of all there was no hyper-generalization about us "olde folks". Do read my post again - it was in answer to a poster who specifically mentioned that photographers should Master the Techniques of Photography and not depend on technology. Meaning anyone who uses new technology is an incompetent photographer unlike him who has mastered the aged old techniques and need no new technology. You on the other hand have articulated your views on the pro and cons of IBIS and OIS in a most professional manner and without denigrating the skills or mentality of those who want it. That is what a forum is for. Discuss and share ideas - not to put people down for being different . By the way I too am an Archaic photographer. I have mentioned a few times (in other threads) I only use aperture control, ISO dial, Shutter speed dial, exposure compensation dial (note dials and not menus). Film simulation. Auto Focus and OIS (if available on the lenses - I have yet to own a camera with IBIS) and auto white balance. I seriously have no idea what else is in the menu. So how more an Archaic Photographer can one be? I never use video in my camera but hey others want it so live and let live I just wish that we can express ourselves here without being put down by others Also why do we keep making excuses for Leica by saying it cannot be done due to issues of size, heat management etc etc whatever whatever .. Let Leica push their boundaries. Just like when they said that it is not possible to have a full frame digital M. Yet it happened. Look what Sony did with the A7 series and how successful they have become. Let's encourage Leica to be more innovative and not protect them with excuses and make them complacent PS:I won't be responding anymore to this issue in case it is construed as becoming an argument 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted January 17, 2018 Share #83 Posted January 17, 2018 That sounds perilously close to adopting the "new camera du jour" 9 month cycle of Sony et al ... something which I am violently opposed to, and Leica's CEO has spoken of negatively on several occasions already. It's why those other companies are having such a desperate, difficult time finding profitability, and substantive part of why so many of their products are always half baked. No, the question isn't and shouldn't be "how much market share does Leica want?" The question is, "What kind of a company does Leica intend to be ... a company producing top notch lenses and cameras or a company more concerned with the bottom line than the products they make?" I would much rather the former, the world is full of the latter and they produce an awful lot of often useless crap. The fundamental, technological question is the one which asks, "Why did you choose to go with Optical Image Stabilization rather then In Body Image Stabilization when the choice was available to you?" Just because IBIS is becoming de rigueur for other makers is not a particularly good answer. Both systems work, and both systems have their failings and advantages. Understanding that why, from Leica's perspective, would tell us much more about the company than the trivial answer to "do you want to increase market share?" Failing to adopt new technology in a timely manner has caused Leica's market share to drop to near zero on multiple occasions. This is far from trivial. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 17, 2018 Share #84 Posted January 17, 2018 Failing to adopt new technology in a timely manner has caused Leica's market share to drop to near zero on multiple occasions. This is far from trivial. Sure but the lack of IBIS in a compact Leica body is the last criticism i would have expected i must say. I'm sure Sony can do better here but i don't want a stock Sony for my Leica lenses and an obese CL would not do it for me. I guess there is more room in the SL body for that. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
su25 Posted January 17, 2018 Share #85 Posted January 17, 2018 +1for SL too.I like Leica lenses. Tried them with non-Leica bodies (even those with IBIS), but I prefer colours from Leica bodies. Non-Leica lenses on Leica bodies are not for me. I don't much have a need for weather sealed lenses. And, I am starting to get comfortable with MF. So IBIS with SL and CL for use with M and R lenses (for size and price), is the best mix for my needs. ISO and shutter speeds have their limitations depending on the kind of photography one does (as pointed out by Dough in his pic) so IBIS does offer an advantage. Until then, I will continue to find best ways to use them for my photography. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 17, 2018 Share #86 Posted January 17, 2018 Failing to adopt new technology in a timely manner has caused Leica's market share to drop to near zero on multiple occasions. This is far from trivial. Yes, but taking a conservative position on camera design has made Leica the oldest surviving independent camera manufacturer. That is even less trivial. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeinzX Posted January 17, 2018 Share #87 Posted January 17, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) In my opinion Leica would be well advised to apply the IBIS on the compact Leicas. For me it would not be an absolute must on the SL and ev. on the S sytems, but it would bee no mistake to have it on these systems too and it would be an advantage for people using nonnative lenses on the SL. When I am right,this system is a precondition for enhancing the resolution by movement of the sensor - which in some cases would be an very interesting feature for S and SL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted January 17, 2018 Share #88 Posted January 17, 2018 Yes, but taking a conservative position on camera design has made Leica the oldest surviving independent camera manufacturer. That is even less trivial. This is exactly what people mean when they say others are making excuses for Leica. The company has come very close to shutting down multiple times and has survived only because they modernized the the technology. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted January 17, 2018 Share #89 Posted January 17, 2018 probably means 1/5th not 5 secsprobaply means using a tripod Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 17, 2018 Share #90 Posted January 17, 2018 I leave the questions of corporate survivability to the corporations. I really don't care if they survive or not—that's up to them. I'm only interested in the products that they produce. If a company, even Leica, goes out of business, I look for other solutions if I need them. The products that I purchased from them have no less capability because the company is gone. Example: I still use and love my Hasselblad V system. Hasselblad is a vastly different company now that it was when it made my system, in 1978. Doesn't matter to me one wit: I'm happy with what my 500CM and lenses can do now, still. Leica makes the best gear for my use at the present time. That said, I have all the gear I could want or need ... too much of it in fact ... and it will last for years longer than I'm going to be alive—I'm already in my sixties, I don't think I'm going to live past 100 and that's being pretty optimistic. So what do I care whether Leica itself survives? Really? I don't want to buy anything else ... really. I want to make photographs, and I've found no limits as yet to the photographs I want to make that are being imposed by my Leica equipment. If your needs are different, well, go forth and sue for the gizmo that will do the job. I don't want different things: I just want to make photographs, which I do on regular occasion and find little to complain about. If there's something in the way, I work around it. I've found nothing that stopped me getting the results I wanted, and no workaround I've needed to do has been particularly difficult or constraining. G Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 17, 2018 Share #91 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Ramarren, First of all there was no hyper-generalization about us "olde folks". Do read my post again - ... I did, several times. Write more clearly. If you're addressing someone specifically, indicate that. Thank you. Edited January 17, 2018 by ramarren Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted January 17, 2018 Share #92 Posted January 17, 2018 snip I was using US$1,200 legacy 500mm lens on a full-frame stabilized camera body. The equivalent modern lens with optical stabilization from C, N or S is up to US$10,000. This image, and many others made with this lens, will make a very nice big print. Leica does not make a lens with equivalent field of view for the CL at any price. IBIS in the CL or SL would allow many to avoid carrying a second (non-Leica) camera (along with its cords, chargers and backups) for long-lens usage. Hi Doug I hope you're well - first of all, I'd like to agree that I'd like to see IBIS on the SL . . . the CL is a little different as it would probably have a detrimental effect on the size of the body. BUT - according to this remark you want Leica to implement IBIS so that you can use a $1200 legacy lens instead of paying $10,000 for a modern lens . . . . . I have a feeling that Leica might forego a few body sales so that they can sell $10,000 lenses instead. I've come to realise that spending money to help people use someone else's product is unusual!. Failing to adopt new technology in a timely manner has caused Leica's market share to drop to near zero on multiple occasions. This is far from trivial. Indeed but they are clearly putting OIS into their lenses, and I don't doubt that sooner or later there will be grand telephotos with OIS (for $10,000 or more). This is exactly what people mean when they say others are making excuses for Leica. The company has come very close to shutting down multiple times and has survived only because they modernized the the technology. Well, at the moment they seem to be doing rather well, rather like Fuji (who also do not have IBIS). I don't do much long lens wildlife photography - but I see many people who do, and the one camera which seems to be missing is the Sony . . . . . (mostly Nikon, followed by Canon with Fuji a distant third . . . none of which have IBIS). I've been playing around with a Panasonic G9 with the 100-400 vario elmar, the IBIS plus OIS is truly remarkable, and I'd love to see the same thing in a future iteration of the SL (and in an APSc body too). But I think they're motivation for doing it (if they ever do) will be to sell their own long lenses . . not to allow us to use our much loved legacy lenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted January 17, 2018 Share #93 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Yes, but taking a conservative position on camera design has made Leica the oldest surviving independent camera manufacturer. That is even less trivial. So did the Great Yellow God - Kodak and look where they are today. Jaapv said EVF would make M too big, can't happen - CL has EVF and is smaller than the M. Tired of "Leica Can't" tired of "Leica won't" tired of "No Android App" tired of "No Astrophotography"etc. - How about Leica just "do it"? No need to waste air all members of the "Leica Koolaid Brigade" - LKB save your breath and fingertips. Edited January 17, 2018 by Rand Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted January 17, 2018 Share #94 Posted January 17, 2018 Well, at the moment they seem to be doing rather well, rather like Fuji (who also do not have IBIS). Fuji have OIS in 8 out of their 9 zooms though and the soon to be announced X-H1 will have IBIS: https://www.fujirumors.com/mark-date-fujifilm-x-h1-announcement-february-14/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 17, 2018 Share #95 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Rand ...... you sound positively unconscious ....... Why not write to Wetzlar and give them a list of what you want. I'm sure they will oblige. I'm not sure where everyone gets the idea that the Management and Technical Departments at Leica are idiots and incapable of a coherent business strategy and cannot justify their choices. Would any other company think that a fiddly Rangefinder camera with manual lenses for upwards for $7k would be a runner in the 21st century ..... and succeed in selling it ...... ? IBIS appears to be the current 'must have ' along with 'weather sealing'. These technologies are driven by the need to gain market share, not by the absolute need to have them to take decent photos. If you need it, buy another camera. If the CL, TL2, M, S or SL don't have features you need, buy another camera. If it's too expensive, buy another camera. Complaining doesn't take photographs. No doubt someone is working on a long range drone + camera so you can take landscape shots 50km away whilst drinking a martini in the bath, iphone in the other hand. Great. Sometimes making life too easy just drains all the fun out of it ....... Edited January 18, 2018 by thighslapper 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 17, 2018 Share #96 Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Rand ...... you sound positively unconscious ....... Why not write to Wetzlar and give them a list of what you want. I'm sure they will oblige. I'm not sure where everyone gets the idea that the Management and Technical Departments at Leica are idiots and incapable of a coherent business strategy and cannot justify their choices. Would any other company think that a fiddly Rangefinder camera with manual lenses for upwards for $7k would be a runner in the 21st century ..... and succeed in selling it ...... ? IBIS appears to be the current 'must have ' along with 'weather sealing'. These technologies are driven by the need to gain market share, not by the absolute need to have them to take decent photos. If you need it, buy another camera. If the CL, TL2, M, S or SL don't have features you need, buy another camera. If it's too expensive, buy another camera. Complaining doesn't take photographs. No doubt someone is working on a long range drone + camera so you can take landscape shots 50km having away whilst drinking a martini in the bath, iphone in the other hand. Great. Sometimes making life too easy just drains all the fun out of it ....... Highlight mine... Hey, if it fits into Hasselblad's product strategy then why not in Leica world. After all it is about all luxury and all. BTW, I think you mistyped "blond" as "iPhone". Edited January 17, 2018 by jmahto 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rand Posted January 18, 2018 Share #97 Posted January 18, 2018 Rand ...... you sound positively unconscious ....... Why not write to Wetzlar and give them a list of what you want. I'm sure they will oblige. I'm not sure where everyone gets the idea that the Management and Technical Departments at Leica are idiots and incapable of a coherent business strategy and cannot justify their choices. Would any other company think that a fiddly Rangefinder camera with manual lenses for upwards for $7k would be a runner in the 21st century ..... and succeed in selling it ...... ? IBIS appears to be the current 'must have ' along with 'weather sealing'. These technologies are driven by the need to gain market share, not by the absolute need to have them to take decent photos. If you need it, buy another camera. If the CL, TL2, M, S or SL don't have features you need, buy another camera. If it's too expensive, buy another camera. Complaining doesn't take photographs. No doubt someone is working on a long range drone + camera so you can take landscape shots 50km having away whilst drinking a martini in the bath, iphone in the other hand. Great. Sometimes making life too easy just drains all the fun out of it ....... Said like a true member of the LKB . I thought I mentioned that members should save their fingertips. Just like Leica, just don't listen and learn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted January 18, 2018 Share #98 Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Hi Doug I hope you're well - first of all, I'd like to agree that I'd like to see IBIS on the SL . . . the CL is a little different as it would probably have a detrimental effect on the size of the body. BUT - according to this remark you want Leica to implement IBIS so that you can use a $1200 legacy lens instead of paying $10,000 for a modern lens . . . . . I'd also like to use my US$4,000 (approximate market value) Leica-R 280mm f/4 APO lens with IBIS, with and without the Leica-R APO extenders. No doubt the owners of the modular Leica-R APO Telyt lenses would also like to take advantage of IBIS, and these lenses are now worth much more than US$10,000. Where is it written that Leica must abandon the current CL-sized body in order to incorporate IBIS in a future camera? Hasn't Leica maintained multiple variations of a camera in their product line before? Multiple digital M bodies come to mind as well as two APS-C EVF cameras. This would not be unprecedented. Edited January 18, 2018 by wildlightphoto Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 18, 2018 Share #99 Posted January 18, 2018 So did the Great Yellow God - Kodak and look where they are today. Jaapv said EVF would make M too big, can't happen - CL has EVF and is smaller than the M. Tired of "Leica Can't" tired of "Leica won't" tired of "No Android App" tired of "No Astrophotography"etc. - How about Leica just "do it"? No need to waste air all members of the "Leica Koolaid Brigade" - LKB save your breath and fingertips. I did not; I said that if my GX8 could it, so should a Leica. (but not an M, that is a rangefinder) Please don't put words into my mouth. If you have an opinion, use your own. LBB = Leica-Bashing Brigade, I suppose? If it does not suit you, don't buy. Moaning is wearisome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 18, 2018 Share #100 Posted January 18, 2018 I'd also like to use my US$4,000 (approximate market value) Leica-R 280mm f/4 APO lens with IBIS, with and without the Leica-R APO extenders. No doubt the owners of the modular Leica-R APO Telyt lenses would also like to take advantage of IBIS, and these lenses are now worth much more than US$10,000. Where is it written that Leica must abandon the current CL-sized body in order to incorporate IBIS in a future camera? Hasn't Leica maintained multiple variations of a camera in their product line before? Multiple digital M bodies come to mind as well as two APS-C EVF cameras. This would not be unprecedented. I should think that an SL with IBIS would be the more suitable camera for this use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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