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Starwolfy

LEICA, we need IBIS !

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???? Whom am I speaking for, then? Self-quote:  I cannot see that as a serious problem...

I think I have a right to hold an opinion.

 

 


 

It would be great if people would learn to speak for themselves and not presume they have the right to speak for others.


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I have read some reviews of other brand lenses and I have seen some lenses to provide about 4 to 5 stops advantage thanks to OIS. I mean...I am not saying we cannot take pics without IBIS or OIS...but this is certainly a guge advantage in low light to be able to keep a sharp shot at very low speeds with a small iso. It may very certainly benefits the image where today your only option is to raise iso.

 

Best

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4 to 5 stops is with Dual IS. OIS or IBIS  separately contribute 2 to 3 stops, normally.

But yes, it is a benefit, maybe even more so than the improvements in ISO performance.

 

I think small wishes come true sooner, so I would really push for O.I.S. on the long lenses - to start off with.

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You're right, some of Leica's decisions are hard to understand. There's not much of a size/weight penalty for integrating IBIS into a APSC sized body as we've seen with the A6000 series. I would have gladly payed another 500 USD for that feature alone. It's 2018 and we have still no option of stabilizing M lenses on a Leica body.

 

+1. Quoted for truth. 

 

I am in the market for an APS-C second body to complement the M and do things that the M can't do. I would very much like a CL or TL2, but I am not sold on the system for a number of reasons: 

 

- lack of convincing lens choices. 

- if I (or Leica) quits the system, the secondhand market will be tiny. This means you either can't sell your secondhand lenses or you will sell them at a huge loss. 

- the bodies are not objectively better than the competition, save for build quality. 

 

Perhaps what Leica needs is a low cost body and a low cost TL zoom to get the system out there into as many hands as possible. 

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4 to 5 stops is with Dual IS. OIS or IBIS  separately contribute 2 to 3 stops, normally.

But yes, it is a benefit, maybe even more so than the improvements in ISO performance.

 

I think small wishes come true sooner, so I would really push for O.I.S. on the long lenses - to start off with.

This is incorrect. both the Fuji 50-140mm and the 100-400mm zooms have a 5 stop OIS rating

The Fuji bodies do not have IBIS 

I can hand hold and shoot a fuji100-400 with a 1,4x tele-converter. That is full frame equivalent of 800mm

 

I would not even attempt it with any camera with no OIS or IBIS

 

A reviewer has claimed that the Olympus OM ED 1Mk ii can be used hand held to 5 secs with both OIS and IBIS

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As for lens choice, I admit I was not convinced either.I was planning to get the body and use it for M and R lenses.

However, I happened to be offered the kit 18-56, after a few days felt compelled to get the 55-135 and I can only say that, for the time being, my M cameras are sitting in the safe gathering dust -balance will be restored in due course, I expect

. These lenses are seriously good.

 

The body is good, worth the money in Leica terms, but yes, others build good cameras as well, it would be strange if not. However, the CL is superior with M lenses.

 

Resale value - well, the TL lenses are cheap in Leica terms, the loss would be less than on, for instance SL lenses.

 

This is low-cost - in Leicaland

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This is incorrect. both the Fuji 50-140mm and the 100-400mm zooms have a 5 stop OIS rating

The Fuji bodies do not have IBIS 

I can hand hold and shoot a fuji100-400 with a 1,4x tele-converter. That is full frame equivalent of 800mm

 

I would not even attempt it with any camera with no OIS or IBIS

 

A reviewer has claimed that the Olympus OM ED 1Mk ii can be used hand held to 5 secs with both OIS and IBIS

Now the last is simply not true The Panasonic/Leica DG Vario-Elmar 100-400 does only 3 stops O.I.S. on an Oly body and does not activate IBIS, 5 on a Panasonic with IBIS combined (reason I went for Panasonic, not Olympus), and the max at 800 equivalent is 1/60th, 1/30th if you really push it.  5 seconds is, let's say, a bit of a hyperbole.

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Now the last is simply not true The Panasonic with the Vario-Elmar 100-400 does only 3 stops on an Oly body, 5 on a Panasonic with IBIS combined, and the max at 800 equivalent is 1/60th, 1/30th if you really push it.  5 seconds is, let's say. a bit of a hyperbole.

Agree. My bad - gave the wrong impression. The reviewer was not using the Oly 1 Mk2 with the Panasonic 100-400mm. It wasa prime or low focal length zoom

I'll check 

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Olympus OM1 ED Mkii review by Robin Wong

12-100mm F4 lens on the camera

handheld photo samples at 1 sec, 2secs and 5secs. All sharp

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Ok - that I can believe, especially 12 mm. I can handhold a 24 for over one second on an M camera when the moon is in the house of Aquarius.

Not an 800 though

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Olympus OM1 ED Mkii review by Robin Wong

12-100mm F4 lens on the camera

handheld photo samples at 1 sec, 2secs and 5secs. All sharp

Robin Wong's shots at long exposure time were at the wide angle end of his lens range.  I've shot nice crisp files at 1 second with this combination myself, but not every time.

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Robin Wong's shots at long exposure time were at the wide angle end of his lens range.  I've shot nice crisp files at 1 second with this combination myself, but not every time.

Well done. I doubt I can do a one second shot these day even with IBIS and OIS together

 

However I never said that he shot 5 seconds on 800mm or even 100mm. I said with OIS and IBIS together has been successfully shot at 5 sec handheld

 

JAAV linked my first point with my second point and thought I meant Robin was using 800mm  

I said I have shot 800mm hand held which I would not attempt with non OIS or IBIS cameras and lenses.

 

My point was OIS and IBIS is and should be available in cameras in 2018 - which is what this thread is about

Not everybody has the same steady hands. Old age, medication and genetics can cause unsteady hands

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Sad reality, for those we will have to look elsewhere. 

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I will then wait for the TL3 with IBIS or the CL2 with IBIS to decide to change my old T

Stabilization is a comfort. A bit like driving with a GPS or AirCon in your car... we now should have a stabilization for TL/CL line no matter being OIS or IBIS but preferably IBIS !

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I have owned and used many cameras with IBIS and similarly with OIS. Image stabilization is lovely stuff ... for what it is actually designed to be useful for. Which is not everything ... Image stabilization is designed to extend and improve on the hand-holdability of long lenses in good light, not to extend hand-holdability of all lenses in bad light. 

 

The SL90-280 lens's OIS is absolutely excellent for this purpose throughout its range since it is a tele to long-tele lens. The SL24-90 lens's OIS is excellent presuming that you realize its effectiveness and benefits increase as the focal length grows past 50mm. At the wide end, it can actually cut sharpness by a measurable amount, particularly noticeable when using a sturdy tripod. This is why Leica provides a function to turn it on and off. These stabilization systems are one reason the lenses are physically large. 

 

IBIS attempts to do stabilization for all lenses in all situations. I've had it in FourThirds, Micro-FourThirds, and APS-C format bodies so far. I've found its effectiveness to be exactly the same as OIS in the SL lenses, again very good when used appropriately. In every case, an unstabilized body that was later replaced with a derivative that included IBIS grew to some degree, and the degree to which it grew was directly proportional to the effectiveness of the IBIS system and format. I have not used the stabilized Sony A7 models ... but from all appearances and reports the same holds true there for the FF format bodies. 

 

You cannot get something for nothing. It's not possible to provide the sensor motion required for IBIS without adding to the body's volume and/or reducing the size of the heat sink that the sensor connects to directly. Olympus can provide it in very small bodies because their sensor is 1/4-FF. Pentax and Fuji provide it with APS-C bodies again because their sensors are 1/2-FF sized. Pentax and Sony now provide it in FF bodies and the bodies have grown in volume by 20% or more. In each case, IBIS has reduced by some degree the suitability of the body for long continuous capture capabilities (video) due to sensor heating. Everything is a trade off. 

 

I have the SL90-280 mm lens for use with the SL and (perhaps someday) the CL. Its image stabilization is on point for why I'd want it. Beyond that, image stabilization doesn't do much for my photography by a significant amount; I'd rather have the simpler, less complex body with fewer moving parts as a result.

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Olympus has been offering IBIS the longest of the current products and is generally thought the most effective.  Somewhere on the Interweb I saw a video of the motions that the Olympus sensor is capable of executing about its five axes.  It was scary, with the edges and corners of the magnetically suspended sensor moving several mm away from their resting positions.  That is why the extra thickness is required, why it grows with frame size, and why thermal coupling/heat sinking will suffer with IBIS.  Still, it is cool to have.

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I used to think that only long lenses benefit IBIS, however after playing with Sony A6500 (same size/weight as CL) for couple of days, I have changed my mind. I tried my 28cron ASPH on it and I can hand hold it consistently at 1/4 sec (even lower with some probability in burst shots). It is just that 28cron ASPH performs poorly on Sony sensor. I would have loved to have CL instead of Sony.

Take the shot below. It is at ISO1000, f/2 and 1/60 sec on M240+28cron ASPH. I would have loved to shoot this at ISO200 handheld and access to all the DR (the scene has huge DR, I ended up clipping highlights in the sky).

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