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So, does the T/TL/TL2 have a future?


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#1 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 13:52

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With the advent of the CL, is the T line destined to extinction?  

 

(This is not so much a knock on the T but rather an acknowledgement that the built in EVF and the fast AF on the CL makes it a more appealing choice, even if I personally prefer the build quality and stunning looks of the T line).

 

Cross-posted in the CL forum.

 

Rob


Edited by ropo54, 14 January 2018 - 14:01.

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#2 Learner

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 15:10

Rob... An interesting thread.

 

I agree with your choice of word: "incongruous". I can think of other words!

 

Might the relatively lower price of the TL2 save it?

 

And then there was the folly of releasing the TL2 with faulty FW whereby the camera and VISO failed to communicate. Cant help but wonder if a head rolled.

 

And then there's the folly of the CL's battery door. Oops, I've strayed off-topic.

 

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(Cross-posted to CL forum)



#3 Learner

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 15:15

Oops, I forgot to add the cost of the VISO to that of the TL2, so there is not a huge difference between the CL and the TL2+VISO.



#4 RickP

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:21

The TL2 has the same processor a the CL, it has the same sensor. It has a body carved out of solid aluminum along with a brilliant interface that is, in my opinion, far superior to other cameras. In theory, the TL2 raw files will be virtually identical to those of the CL.

There is no doubt that the built in EVF is a lovely plus for the CL, but my readings have hinted that the CL body may not have the solid feel that the T system has .. I really don’t know, but that may or may not be true.

Leica optics are the first reason to buy into Leica. In the past, the M film bodies were mechanical marvels that deserved worship. However, now that digital has taken over, as far as I am concerned, camera bodies are merely platforms upon which to mount your wonderful lenses.

I waited through the horrible release of the TL2 until I felt they had worked through the glitches. I already have a very good EVF leftover from my T which I find more than adequate for my use. Plus I have a gorgeous hand made Italian leather 1/2 case by Luigi which makes me enjoy the camera and eliminates the slippery body aspect of the T series.

I am sure that in 5 years Leica will come up with yet another spiffy new body with TL, SL Mount., I may or may not move up. It all depends on my needs, and whether or not I am pleased with my photographs.


Sincerely,

Rick
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#5 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:36

I'd like to cross breed the TL2 and the CL!  Give me the TL2 build and body and the CL's AF speed and EVF. (I'm a minority and not a fan of the Visoflex).

 

As zany as it sounds, I would have preferred Leica to have introduced the TL2 with the faster AF system (we know they could do it with the CL) and added a built in EVF, and then  give users the option to electronically select the user interface of the TL2 or the CL. Simply push a menu option!


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#6 Belle123

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:34

I'd like to cross breed the TL2 and the CL!  Give me the TL2 build and body and the CL's AF speed and EVF. (I'm a minority and not a fan of the Visoflex).
 
As zany as it sounds, I would have preferred Leica to have introduced the TL2 with the faster AF system (we know they could do it with the CL) and added a built in EVF, and then  give users the option to electronically select the user interface of the TL2 or the CL. Simply push a menu option!


I think is doable if they can find a way to build in a pop up EVF on the TL body. Wish they did. The CL body and menu system, boring. Just my opinion.
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#7 Volbeat

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 23:49

I certainly hope so.

I was ready to buy a TL2 as soon as they were launched but the news of them failing with the Visoflex put the brakes on that. Then the rumours of the Clooney broke and I held off until the full story was revealed.

 

I'm just not smart enough to use multiple buttons and dials (I learned that from a short but ill-fated relationship with a GX8). So, for me the weird multi function dials with buttons in the middle was a no-go. Can't say that I'm taken with the little old-school LCD either, useful as it may be for some.

 

What I love about the T/TL2 is the minimalist simplicity of design and ease of use. 


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Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. - Marcus Aurelius

 


#8 jaapv

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 02:17

I have both the GX8 and the CL. I can assure you that the user interface is no comparison.


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#9 Volbeat

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:49

I have both the GX8 and the CL. I can assure you that the user interface is no comparison.

 

Hi Jaap,

 

I absolutely believe you but for me less really is more. The less I have to think about, the more I'll do/ get & enjoy. 

Many photographers (maybe even most photographers) like lots of buttons and dials so that they feel in control. While I don't want fully automated point & shoot, I only want to control a couple of parameters at a time - Aperture being the prime concern most of the time for me.

 

Cheers


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#10 Belle123

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 15:29

Hi Jaap,
 
I absolutely believe you but for me less really is more. The less I have to think about, the more I'll do/ get & enjoy. 
Many photographers (maybe even most photographers) like lots of buttons and dials so that they feel in control. While I don't want fully automated point & shoot, I only want to control a couple of parameters at a time - Aperture being the prime concern most of the time for me.
 
Cheers


You are absolutely correct, as far as I am concerned. Give me a camera with just manual aperature selection, timing, and focus, with some built in tools to gadge exposure. Is all anyone needs really. Like my first M and R in film days. Is why I ended up with Leica because “thinking” cameras during film days screwed things up. Digital has definitely complicated things, but less is more. The fewer buttons, simpler menus, the better the design. More thought goes into shooting than what the camera is set at.
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#11 IkarusJohn

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 22:00

Why would the release of the CL spell the end of the TL2?  They're both new and different expressions of the same technology.

 

I'm not sure I buy the "AF is better on the CL" mantra.  I'd like to see some empirical evidence to support this.  The reason I'm sceptical (I have no problem with the AF on the TL2, as AF goes), is that the AF motors are built in to the lenses, not the cameras.  Both cameras have the same processor, same sensor and use the same lenses.  I can't think, for the life of me, why the AF should be any different.  As i recall this came out at the same time as the confirmation that the CL had the EVF out of the SL (fact, really) and would do everything you needed, including make your coffee.

 

Not that I mind, I just wonder why this assertion keeps being repeated, yet we've seen no real evidence of it.  If the AF is faster, I'd be pretty unimpressed if Leica didn't rectify it in the next TL2 firmware upgrade.


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#12 LocalHero1953

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 22:12

I traded in my TL2 and 23mm for the CL plus, soon after, the 18mm. I had the 60mm for the TL2 and kept it. The 60mm was faster focusing, and quicker at finding focus, on the CL, without a shadow of a doubt - night and day. The focus movement was about twice the speed, it hunts less, and it's better in low light (not SL+zooms speed, but good). Since I only had the two bodies side by side for about 15 minutes at the launch of the CL I can't safely answer for the 23mm, though I think it is faster on the CL. The 18mm is fast focusing, as one might expect (small lens, small elements, wide angle). I have not had the TL2 with the firmware that came out to support the 18mm, so, for all I know, the TL2 now focuses the 60mm as fast as the CL.


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#13 IkarusJohn

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 22:18

Thanks Paul - so the obvious question is, why?


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#14 LocalHero1953

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 22:31

Thanks Paul - so the obvious question is, why?

Indeed. Like you, I can't see why the TL2 shouldn't benefit. In one of Jono Slack's posts about the new Summicron-SL's, he says Leica had a focusing "epiphany" a few months ago, including a new algorithm that predicted the correct direction of focus - hence the reason the 75 and 90 are so much faster than the Summilux-SL 50 (and perhaps why they are late to market wrt the road map). It makes one wonder if this trick has been introduced in the CL as well.

 

As a simple geologist, the technology of AF and camera firmware is beyond me, though. Perhaps the CL can supply more power to the lens now it doesn't have to supply the large TL2 LV screen? And we keep hearing about the two processors that Leica has used, Maestro I in the M240, and now Maestro II in the SL, M10, TL2 and CL - perhaps there's a slightly different version of the Maestro II in the CL which has better performance, or perhaps they're running the Maestro II in the CL at a higher clock speed? Who knows!


Edited by LocalHero1953, 18 January 2018 - 22:36.

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#15 IkarusJohn

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:34

What would you want them to say?

 

Leica's commitment is to the L mount.  Why would they discontinue the TL2, which is but one of three cameras using the L mount?  For so long as they can source sensors and processors (I can't see why APS-C sensor production would cease, and the processor is common to the CL, TL2 and SL), why wouldn't then meet demand?  Leica produces in batches, set against demand and future products.  Why would the TL2 be any different?

 

If you've invested in L mount lenses, I'm very sure Leica will produce cameras to use on them.  What difference would it make if they decided to continue with the CL and drop the TL (it would be a shame, but my TL2 would continue working, I think).


Edited by IkarusJohn, 20 January 2018 - 01:35.

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#16 Paul Reading

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 03:01

I think that the should have made a TL3 with a hybrid viewfinder like the X-pro2.



#17 microview

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 11:26

I see that in the UK the price of the TL2 has recently fallen by £100 with most major dealers. Eve Red Dot approaches that discount….



#18 ropo54

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 11:49

What would you want them to say?

 

Leica's commitment is to the L mount.  Why would they discontinue the TL2, which is but one of three cameras using the L mount?  For so long as they can source sensors and processors (I can't see why APS-C sensor production would cease, and the processor is common to the CL, TL2 and SL), why wouldn't then meet demand?  Leica produces in batches, set against demand and future products.  Why would the TL2 be any different?

 

If you've invested in L mount lenses, I'm very sure Leica will produce cameras to use on them.  What difference would it make if they decided to continue with the CL and drop the TL (it would be a shame, but my TL2 would continue working, I think).

 

The point is that the absence of an EVF and the slower AF speed, in particular, make it not "desirable-enough" for a consumer to opt for it rather than a CL, despite its beautiful design and touch screen.  My post did not suggest that there is not a market for apsc, as the popularity of the CL is quite ably demonstrating.


Rob/ Miami-Ft. Lauderdale


#19 dnease

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 20:28

I am optimistic about the future of the TL2.

Clearly Leica had parallel development going on between the TL2 and CL. That is no small feat for a small company. They wanted to make an investment in the APC-C market that could capture both new and traditional Leica enthusiasts. The recent story in LFI pretty much confirms this.

It would have been easy for Leica to cut their losses and invest all of their energy in the CL. They chose not to do that.

I think we can expect firmware updates to bring the TL2 into parity with the CL with respect to autofocus. I suspect that as a small company the CL got the most recent software work.

I've put my money where my mouth is, and just placed an order for the TL2. I have a T and the Visoflex EVF currently. I love the flexibility and UI of the T/TL2 platform.


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#20 ropo54

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 21:10

I am optimistic about the future of the TL2.

Clearly Leica had parallel development going on between the TL2 and CL. That is no small feat for a small company. They wanted to make an investment in the APC-C market that could capture both new and traditional Leica enthusiasts. The recent story in LFI pretty much confirms this.

It would have been easy for Leica to cut their losses and invest all of their energy in the CL. They chose not to do that.

I think we can expect firmware updates to bring the TL2 into parity with the CL with respect to autofocus. I suspect that as a small company the CL got the most recent software work.

I've put my money where my mouth is, and just placed an order for the TL2. I have a T and the Visoflex EVF currently. I love the flexibility and UI of the T/TL2 platform.

 

I hope that they do!  And, maybe develop an improved external EVF. 

Rob


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