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SCNOO - repair


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#1 jerzy

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 16:50

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recently a friend of mine (and LF member) sent me his newly purchased rapid winder for repair. The band/ribbon was broken.  However during repair I found another failure  - broken clutch spring. SCNOOs are not very complicated devices, there is not too much what can get damaged. I made some notes and photos from the repair. Sharing it with the community, for the members with DIY skills.

Due to the size of document split into two parts

Attached File  Rapid Winder SCNOO Repair instruction part 1.pdf   395.99KB   55 downloads


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#2 jerzy

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 16:51

Attached File  Rapid Winder SCNOO Repair instruction part 2.pdf   312.71KB   66 downloads... and part 2


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#3 willeica

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 17:36

Thanks very much Jerzy. I had a SCNOO with a broken ribbon repaired about 5 years ago. However, I did not send in the camera I was mainly using with it and, as a result, it takes a pull and bit rather than a single pull to wind on fully.  The same applies to a SYOOM (Leicavit) which works fully (a single pull to wind on) on some cameras, but not on others which also require a pull and a bit. This seems to be because of the orientation on the wind spindle on the camera itself which has to be matched to that on the winder. In general, it seems that cameras which have not been touched since they left Leica or were upgraded in the Leica factory itself do not have any problems with winders, but cameras which have been worked on by outside repair persons may have winder issues. What the repair person has to do is to make sure that the camera and winder are matched at the time of the repair. I have also had some matching problems with a MOOLY, but they are due to a variety of reasons. I am aware that Leica cameras before certain dates will not work with some winders, but in some cases I have come across early cameras with modified spindles to take winders.

 

William



#4 jerzy

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 18:14

thx William. I have no experience with Leicavit nor Mooly, however the problemn described by you shall not happen with SCNOO. The tip of the shaft which couples with wind axis is spring loaded, so it does not matter if this fits into cutout in the winding axis when putting SCNOO on the camera, During the first wind you will hear a quiet click and a bit more resitance when pulling - this means that SCNOO shaft latched with the axis. Than the full wind shall happen with a single pull.

Problem as you described indicates rather malfunction of spring clutch - it could be that the spring is partially broken or simply that the shaft was lubricated on the surface where spring clutch touches it, it may slip around the shaft and thus you will need more than one pull for full wind. 

As mentioned this is in respect to SCNOO, I have no experience with other winders.


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#5 willeica

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 18:32

thx William. I have no experience with Leicavit nor Mooly, however the problemn described by you shall not happen with SCNOO. The tip of the shaft which couples with wind axis is spring loaded, so it does not matter if this fits into cutout in the winding axis when putting SCNOO on the camera, During the first wind you will hear a quiet click and a bit more resitance when pulling - this means that SCNOO shaft latched with the axis. Than the full wind shall happen with a single pull.

Problem as you described indicates rather malfunction of spring clutch - it could be that the spring is partially broken or simply that the shaft was lubricated on the surface where spring clutch touches it, it may slip around the shaft and thus you will need more than one pull for full wind. 

As mentioned this is in respect to SCNOO, I have no experience with other winders.

 

Thanks Jerzy. I was asked by the SCNOO repair guy to send the camera body for matching and, for some I reason that I cannot recall, I did not send it. With the Leicavit/SYOOM, it will work on some cameras, but not on others. I believe that I have read somewhere about this issue being related to the positioning/orientation of the tip of the winding spool. I would at this stage advise anyone who is having a winder repaired to send in the camera, they are most likely to use the winder with, for matching. I have had issues with all 3 varieties of early Leica winder where the winder will work with one camera, but not with another.

 

William



#6 ironringer

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:56

I am the extremely fortunate fellow whose mid-1930s SCNOO was repaired by Jerzy (thank you :) !). He agreed to share his analysis and repair process with the Forum because

- we feel it is an important and very unusual project, and

- perhaps other enthusiasts can perform similar repairs to get more dormant SCNOOs out in the air, to be used, instead of sitting in dark drawers.

I think too many old Leicas and accessories are left idle, and I try to "give them some air" and use them. When shooting pictures, especially in tourist areas of the world, I have been asked many times about my old cameras and accessories. That leads to engaging with people, interesting discussions, and spreading the word about the pleasure of photography with fine, classic equipment giving excellent results.

So ... air out those (repaired) SCNOOs with your screwmount cameras, and enjoy the curious looks of the public, with subsequent conversations. Mr. Barnack would certainly approve !

 


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#7 willeica

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:08

I am the extremely fortunate fellow whose mid-1930s SCNOO was repaired by Jerzy (thank you :) !). He agreed to share his analysis and repair process with the Forum because

- we feel it is an important and very unusual project, and

- perhaps other enthusiasts can perform similar repairs to get more dormant SCNOOs out in the air, to be used, instead of sitting in dark drawers.

I think too many old Leicas and accessories are left idle, and I try to "give them some air" and use them. When shooting pictures, especially in tourist areas of the world, I have been asked many times about my old cameras and accessories. That leads to engaging with people, interesting discussions, and spreading the word about the pleasure of photography with fine, classic equipment giving excellent results.

So ... air out those (repaired) SCNOOs with your screwmount cameras, and enjoy the curious looks of the public, with subsequent conversations. Mr. Barnack would certainly approve !

 

Thanks. My SCNOO, SYOOM and MOOLY all get outings. I occasionally get asked questions about my cameras, usually from older people. I wonder, though, what the situation will be in years to come when very few people remember what a camera is. Already, many young people I meet have never used a film camera and I often get asked by people of all ages ' can you still get film for those?'

 

William



#8 Susie

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:05

Hi Guys,

 

Last year, or maybe the year before now, I bought a 111a at a local auction.  There was only one other bidder, and although he had picked up the SCNOO and looked at it he didn't know what he was looking at.  At the time, the camera was fitted with its standard base.  The result, I got the camera and several nice accessories with a very clean Summar for a couple of hundred pounds.

 

The SCNOO also had a broken tape, but Peter Grisaffi at CRR repaired it for me.  I remember at the time he commented on how carefully the winder had to be matched to the camera in order to get it to wind in a single pass of the trigger.

 

The whole set up works much more smoothly that I thought it would ( I should have known better having played with Leicas all these years!)

 

Susie


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#9 willeica

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:51

Hi Guys,

 

Last year, or maybe the year before now, I bought a 111a at a local auction.  There was only one other bidder, and although he had picked up the SCNOO and looked at it he didn't know what he was looking at.  At the time, the camera was fitted with its standard base.  The result, I got the camera and several nice accessories with a very clean Summar for a couple of hundred pounds.

 

The SCNOO also had a broken tape, but Peter Grisaffi at CRR repaired it for me.  I remember at the time he commented on how carefully the winder had to be matched to the camera in order to get it to wind in a single pass of the trigger.

 

The whole set up works much more smoothly that I thought it would ( I should have known better having played with Leicas all these years!)

 

Susie

 

Thanks Susie. I'm glad you now have a working SCNOO. What Peter at CRR told you confirms my own findings about matching.

 

A IIIa, Summar and a SCNOO make a very nice combination. My use of the SCNOO has largely been with a Standard and 35mm Elmar and zone focus. See combination below with a Voigtlander 35mm viewfinder.

 

Attached File   Leica Standard 1938 with SCNOO winder and 3.5 cm Elmar (1 of 1).jpg   112.24KB   2 downloads

 

William


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#10 Loggerboot

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 06:29

Very good Workshop. 100 Points. 



#11 jerzy

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 16:42

 

 

 I remember at the time he commented on how carefully the winder had to be matched to the camera in order to get it to wind in a single pass of the trigger.

 

 

Hi all,

with all due respect to what experts are saying.......SCNOO is designed and constructed in the way that, with exception of the first wind after closing the camera, the full wind requires ONE pass only. Being lucky still to have  SCNOO from Jim I tested it on 30 cameras, models from Standard till IIIb, SNs from 42xxx (IIIa sync ugraded in mid fifties) till 357xxx (postwar IIIb). I am sure that majority of these bodies did not have SCNOOO attached before. On all of them a single pass is enough for the full wind.

So there is nothing like matching SCNOO to the camera, SCNOO must work properly on every camera which supports it (see restriction in part 1 of my instruction). 

There are 2 main reasons why more than one pass is needed:

1. trigger is not travelling full rails - it must be moved from one end to another - and this may have again 2 reasons:

     1.a. tape/ribbon to short

     1.b. leaf spring is  too much pre-tensioned 

2. spring clutch between drum and shaft has malfunction - possible reasons described in my document

 

Cases described in 1a and 1b can always be repaired, broken spring clutch not always, it depends of the nature of malfunction. In case of Jim's SCNOO it was only hook which was broken. Recreating new hook shorten the spring by 5mm only, the spring has still enough grip on the shaft to turn it. But if it is broken in the middle than it will not be able to provide 100% grip between the drum and shaft, it will slide over the shaft. Similarly if the spring or shaft are heavily used and their surfaces are "polished" - there will be not enough grip. Possibly such spring could be done but it is not strightforward (how hard the material for the spring shall be, it's diameter...)

My comments relate to SCNOO only. I do not know Leicavit nor MOOLY, it could very well be that they need to be matched. For sure the electrical motor for Reporter was matched to body.

If someone of LF members based in EU (import tax implications) has SCNOO which requires more than one pull I can offer free of charge inspection and repair, if possible. Asking only for postage.


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#12 Susie

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 16:11

Hi Jerzy,

 

Whilst I appreciate that individual SCNOOs were/are not matched to individual cameras, when the tape is replaced, in order to get the correct length to give a full wind per sweep, it does need adjusting on a camera.  In the case of my SCNOO there was no tape there for Peter to measure.

 

Susie


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#13 jerzy

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 17:34

Hi Susie,

yes, tape length is important, however not critical up to milimeters. When cutting tape for Jim's SCNOO I am pretty sure that it was not exactely the same length, could vary up to 1cm compared to original. Too short tape will prevent trigger to travel full rails, similarly too long tape may require more pre-tensioning of the leaf spring and thus as well may limit the trigger travel. But as mentioned, it is not cricital to have excately the same length.

Still I do not understand what kind of adjustement shallo to be done on the camera. Do you know it by chance? Position of slots in the wind axis for sure not, this is being "compensated" during the first, partial wind when the pins of SCNOO shaft will latch into the slots on wind axis, and than the full pass will complete the wind.

On the motor operated winders (MOOLY or electric) the initial position of slots on wind axis most probably will have  implication on proper functioning.

We may take this discussion as well off-line not to" bore" others with these technical details if you wish.

best regards Jerzy


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#14 Susie

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 22:12

Hi Jerzy,

 

There were no adjustments made to the camera; it was purely to use as a base on which to adjust the winder.  I now have other cameras of the same vintage i.e. pre 111c and the winder works fine on them too.

 

Susie




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