Can Leica Motor M cause shutter misfire with M6?

[ironringer]

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I am requesting guidance from enthusiasts with experience using the Leica Motor M 14408 winder with an M6:

I recently bought a minty-unused Motor M 14408 for my son to use with his black M6, which has not had any shutter problems in the 6 months he has owned it (purchased from a reputable UK dealer).

At Christmas he installed the winder without any problem, using new batteries, and shot two rolls of colour film to test the combination. He likes the feel of it, it gives a better grip, and it works as he wanted = he can easily moderate the taking of single or multiple shots in a sequence.

Yesterday upon examining the first two rolls taken using the winder for both single shots and several sequences of shots, he sees that the shutter has NOT fired for some frames, at random occurrences, through about 75 shots (two rolls of 36).

He tested the camera with a scrap roll, keeping the back open and without a lens, at all shutter speeds, both without the winder mounted (manual wind), and with the motor winder mounted. In both situations he sees the shutter NOT firing sometimes, and this misfire happens more often when the winder is mounted. It happens randomly, sometimes for single shots, sometimes during a sequence of shots.

So my question is - can a Motor M cause a problem with the M6 shutter, perhaps because it winds too strongly and maybe damages the coupling between the film advance and the shutter cocking-firing system? When testing my son sees the film advance properly in all cases, and is sure the shutter is being "cocked", but some frames do not fire the shutter curtains (no exposure, blank frames). This misfire happens at all shutter speeds.

Has anyone experienced this problem? Is there a cause and effect between the Motor M and the M6? Is there an adjustment needed in the Motor M (can it wind too strongly?, is there a clutch that needs adjustment?, is there a "stop winding" switch inside?)?

I assume that the M6 now needs a repair, that will be expensive. We are not sure of this was a problem waiting to happen, or if it was caused by using the Motor M. It only started when using the winder for those first rolls.

One suggestion is that both shutter curtains may be firing together, without a slit being formed, so no exposure happens. But could the winder have created that problem?

All guidance is appreciated, thank you.

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[adan]

I'd need to do a little research on the 14408 Motor M compared to the previous (and definitely wacky) Winder M4-2 - but yes, it is possible.

 

There is no electrical signal (as with, say, the MD-12 motor for a Nikon FM) to tell the motor when the camera is safe to advance after exposure. It has to depend on mechanical "signals" or force-feedback and a weird clutching/blocking mechanism to "hold back" the motor. Definitely, using exposure times longer than recommended in the instructions (1/60?) can cause lockups or shutter-capping (no slit between the curtains, thus no exposure). As can trying to take a second exposure in "I" mode with another press of the shutter button, while the motor is still winding on from a first exposure.

 

Using the earlier M4-2 winder, I had an M4-P that ceased taking pictures even without the winder for a brief while, after using the winder. At least intermittently, I'd push the shutter button, and it just felt spongy or as though something in the release path was "bent," and did not release the shutter. Cured itself after a few days with no winder attached, and I quit using that winder (or any, on M film cameras) thereafter.

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[wattsy]

The Motor-M is an unforgiving way of winding the camera. As Andy has explained, there is an inbuilt mechanical delay via some mechanism that prevents the wind-on occurring until the shutter has completed the exposure but there is nothing gentle about the way the Motor forces the camera to wind the shutter the very instant that it is able to. You can test this by applying force to the normal wind on lever prior to releasing the shutter. At the slower speeds like 1 second, the wind-on lever shouldn't be released until the exposure has completed but it feels like an ugly way of winding the camera. My guess is that your son's M6 shutter mechanism is a little maladjusted after many years service and the Motor-M, with it's impatient wind-on action, is making this apparent.

 

I have owned the Motor in the past but valued it more for the extra grip and balance it provided than I did it's winding qualities (in fact, I used to use it most of the time as a glorified grip with the motor turned off). I wasn't keen on the shutter release bounce either but the Motor did come in handy sometimes for making bracketed exposures on a tripod without having to manually crank the wind on lever.

[pico]

Just adding to the data. I do not use an M6, but I use Leica's motor-wind and Abrahamsson Rapid Winders on every camera they fit (M2, M4-P, M7). I have never had a problem with the motor if it is used within its scope, as others have mentioned. I think Abrahamsson's Rapid Winder exerts a far more violent action than the Leica motor, at least in my hands, and it has never caused a problem.

 

I suspect that your son's M6 is in need of a CLA. No shame. It is old enough to consider one.

Edited January 9, 2018 by pico