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What you want to see in next S


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What you want for next S? I start another topic now because market change quickly in last few years, competition from 35mm system and other medium format digital move very fast.

 

Here are the lists of mine:

 

Must have (For me or for market need):

 

1. Mirrorless is fine as long as it can make it cheaper, smaller and attract more customers, but it has to offer lag free shutter and at least as good as SL EVF with fast refresh rate. This is essential.  I believe Leica will make it right given how much effort it give to S's OVF and SL's EVF. 

2. If it is not a Mirrorless, I won't be disappointed. Please reduce the weight of the camera and maybe reduced size a little bit as well, I feel the grip is on the large side to feel truly comfortable to hold.  I am sure it will make it more competitive by reduce size and weight. 

3. Please offer full articulated LCD, it will save my knee for low angle shooting or even on tripod shooting. If not, at least a flip LCD. I think this is a important feature for modern digital camera. 

4. IF it stay as a OVF SLR camera, please offer fully electric shutter, even read out is slow. It is very important to be able to hand hold at slower shutter speed without mirror slap. It will also help for tripod shooting. 

5. make it at least 60M. No further comment on this, I personally don't need pixel, but considering it has to be competitive for next 5 years, it better offer more than 50M.

 

Nice to have: 

1: more AF point, smaller AF point size if it is a OVF camera. For EVF, I am sure it will offer more. 

2. Sensor have similar DR as other medium format digital as good as Sony chip, I wish they can simply use Sony sensor with 16 bits flow. maybe a wild dream. 

3. If it is a EVF camera, maybe make it 4:3 format than 3:2 (I like this format more and we can simply use Sony chip. cheaper!) Another wild dream. 

4. if it is an OVF camera, improve shutter and mirror impact. This is another very important not on paper spec. 

Edited by ZHNL
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Sorry, been some time since I checked in here. Some really good input on this thread.   I published an article a few weeks ago sharing some of my thoughts, wishes and hopes for the next generation S camera. I'd love it if you guys would take a minute to vote on some of the mini surveys I have sprinkled throughout the article. About 85 S users have voted so far, which isn't bad, but I'd like see the data get even more concrete with more users chiming in. And the results are public, so it's kind

What I want to see in the new S is its tracking number.   M

I think you'd be surprised just how minimal the mirror slap and shutter vibration actually are on the Leica S 007. And how well it performs in low light.   Night Shooting with the Leica S (Typ 007)

My top suggestion is for Leica to keep using the same body and EVF. What makes the S a unique and compelling product is that it produces medium format results in a form factor that is no bigger than competitors' "professional" 35mm cameras. The viewfinder alone is reason enough to buy into the system. Leica can release a companion mirrorless camera (like the current Sinar 30|45), but they absolutely must keep the OVF around.

I would rather be looking through a good OVF all day, rather than an EVF. It's just so much more relaxing and responsive.

 

Everything else is just a matter of incremental improvements. I trust that they will pick a sensor that maximizes image quality, probably at the expense of headline-grabbing "megapixels."

The buffer will get bigger, and the processor will get faster.

We will probably see a switch away from CF cards, either to dual-SD (like the SL), or to CFast, or even to an M.2 ssd solution.

I would love to have video that uses the full sensor width, at UHD or higher resolutions.

 

Other than that, they need to work on the price. The S will never be as cheap as a Fuji or and X1D (it is much more complex to build), but surely they can bring the price difference down. A simpler mirrorless S variant should be 10-20% more than an X1D, which is fully justified by having a better viewfinder and battery.

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1. No more OVF please, it's not good for critical focus and the big mirror slap introduce vibration. So, maybe a 8mega pixel EVF, double of what SL....

2. Better focus peaking algorithms. It's really not that obvious at the moment....

3. IBIS, it will pull the market back to S from the other competitors. Getting critical shots guaranteed in every shots is a big big big appeal for me, I am sure for everyone.

4. Some faster lens at f/2 or even f/1.4...

5. Sensor tech to have thin filter cover, vibration cleaning, 60~80mega pixel cause it really is important no matter how we keep telling ourself it's not. It's not doing the S lens justification. It's like saying, ohh I keep a 1.6L engine in my porsche 911 cause it has a smoother characteristic...

6. Keep the simple layout of S ergonomics as is, no articulated screen or anything. It's a pure photography tools, and I would like it keep it as such.

7. Please use better glue for the body armor, it's really embarrassing seeing all the body armor dropping off...

8. DR could reach 15stop ala Phaseone...

9. Price wise, I think without the mirror, it will be cheaper, but still around 15k~18k USD, it's acceptable...

10. Focus system that is both PDAF and CDAF to guarantee fast acquisition and accuracy... well not something new, but it's nice to have. as for focus point, I am fine with just 1 point focus, but nice to have the ability to move around....

Edited by xiaubauu2009
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Must have kick ass stats for me to consider buying it. Throw everything and the kitchen sink at it if you have to. Top 3 priorities for me are:

 

- AF system overhaul for accuracy, speed, and more points. The current 007 will sometimes give you confirmation of focus when in fact focus is not spot on - especially on a lens like the 100 F2.

- 70-75 megapixels sensor to utilize the max resolving power of the S lenses.

- Better ISO (low light) performance with the same or better dynamic range.

 

The list can go on, but if just these top features are in the new camera, then I'd really have to consider upgrading.

Edited by Flu
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1) much higher resolution. Images bigger than around 40-45” wide look very run of the mill from the S range when I compare them to my 5x4s + super symmar xl lens + drum scans. That is my personal benchmark for high image quality. What the S lacks is not lens quality or tonal depth or acuity, it simply lacks resolution in my view when you’re dealing with larger images. Given the X1D and Fuji are already 50mp with a roadmap towards 100mp, I think the S008 could look superseded quickly in terms of “on paper specs” if they don’t push resolution to 65mp+. Admittedly, “on paper specs” is a very crude way to assess image quality, and I think the S lenses allow the camera to punch above its megapixel weight, but my concern is that the currently poor residual value of the S cameras is possibly a direct reflection of its “on paper specs” of low resolution. Lower resolution might be fine for fashion images, and maybe that is the target market, but i for one would like to use the S for landscapes, and that needs a lot higher resolution due to the fine detail on a landscape that falls apart quickly when a file is resampled too aggressively for big prints.

2) the S008 should be an EVF version to compete with Hasselblad X1D and Fuji. Use the entire DNA from the SL, and simply make the whole thing “medium format” in scale. This will give lower vibration (no mirror) - my personal key dislike of DSLRs; give a more compact body; give immediate ability to use the large range of existing S lenses via an adapter; allow perfect focus off the sensor with multi-focal points; give Leica the ability to introduce “next generation” EVF S lenses that are as good as what the SL’s prime Summicrons promise to be (again, drawing off lessons learnt from the SL but upscaling it all to medium format); Leica could cross-sell its Cine lens range to a medium format system if the S008 is an EVF; and Leica could cross-sell into Sinar with the EVF 008 acting as a digital back for a “large format with movements”.

3) if the S008 ends up being an EVF “SL on steroids”, give “traditional” OVF users the option to upgrade the sensor to a higher resolution in their existing S 007s. ie, run two S cameras in parrallel, (a) the EVF S008 and ( b ) 007 that can be upgraded to a higher megapixel version to not disinfranchise people on the EVF vs OVF debate, and to fire up the residual value again of the low megapixel 007.

4) if the S008 is an EVF, ensure the lens adapter to use S lenses is immediately available for the new camera. Really not a joke.

 

An interesting and as always great article by Mr Farkas is here .....

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/12/thoughts-next-generation-leica-s/

Edited by Jon Warwick
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Jon,

 

The problem I have with your suggestion, and other similar ones, is that it's saying "make it like everyone else's system, only with a red dot."

 

The reason I was drawn into the S system is the form factor (similar to a 1Dx), and the incredible viewfinder. It's the only medium format system that one can shoot all day in a fast-paced environment (without assistants). Why would I give that up for a "me too" camera?

 

Surely you knew about the wide range of medium format digital view cameras when you bought your S? If you want something to replace your 4x5, there was/is no shortage of options.

 

As I stated earlier, I expect that Leica will release a successor to the Sinar 30|45 mirrorless camera, using the S-008's electronics (and probably the SL's EVF). That's great, and it might take a few sales away from other mirrorless MF systems, but it only makes sense as a complement to a real (OVF) S-008.

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1. >80 MP 

2. multi spot AF

3. increase ISO performance so that there is minimal noise at 6400 or evenb 12800...

4. DR to 16 0r 17

5. Improved resolution to match the superb lenses..

6. 350mm tele long ago promised..

Albert 

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I am closer to the need of upgrading my ageing Medium Format.

 

Can I really be bothered waiting until next Photokina to find out what the S will or will not be? - Not really. The S is sorta off my radar these days. Others are doing great things elsewhere with a sensor roadmap that is already known and a future that is a more secure investment. Also without all the service and reliability issues.

 

Leica really should at least start hinting what it might be to hold back the flow to Fuji/Blad. And they should certainly start winning back lost hearts from reliability/service issues with some sort of show of customer support and development on service mess ups. What have they learned from all this? what is going to change? How is a new Leica experience going to be different from the old Leica experience? It doesn't seem like much as changed at the moment with free 006 sensor replacements stopping.

 

Last Photokina there was talk of a new "Professional Unit" where did that go? None of this paints a great picture...

Edited by Paul J
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Almost forget:

Reliability

No mandatory Noise reduction

 

Reliability include bug free, reliable AF accuracy, no more AF failure, no sensor issue etc...

 

I think reliability issue is a big one haunt Leica S system along with low resolution make resale value ridicules low. I am sure lots people get burned for supposedly ‘pro’ system.

Edited by ZHNL
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Mirror slap is indeed one of major issue for big camera, of course size and weight. Because of handhold ability, high ISO performance become more important compare other MF system as we need shutter speed to compensate mirror slap.

 

If make it small, light EVF based camera means cheaper, lighter, more shooting envelop, bring more new customers who appreciate latest mirrorless system, why not. At least it save my disaster S lenses resale value.

Edited by ZHNL
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Can I really be bothered waiting until next Photokina to find out what the S will or will not be?

As opposed to Fuji/Sony saying that they may or may not announce a new product at Photokina, which may or may not be available some time in 2019?

Seems like the same thing to me. The only difference is that one brand likes to play with rumours a lot more.

 

I base my purchase decisions on what's available now, not what fan sites tell me will be available in a few years. Other than a few specific situations that do not apply to me (very long exposure times), I don't see anything right now that would make me switch systems. Nobody can tell the difference between a 37MP print and a 50MP print on a wall (especially when the lower-res file is made with better lenses). What matters to me is the practical aspects: which is more comfortable to shoot, easier to frame?

 

Leica has switched to a different communications strategy in the past few years. We only start to hear firm rumours a few weeks before a product is released, not a year out.

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Leica has switched to a different communications strategy in the past few years. We only start to hear firm rumours a few weeks before a product is released, not a year out.

The SL lens roadmap was quite specific, and a year or more out, but unfortunately with delays similar to those with the S lens launch.

 

Jeff

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As opposed to Fuji/Sony saying that they may or may not announce a new product at Photokina, which may or may not be available some time in 2019?

Seems like the same thing to me. The only difference is that one brand likes to play with rumours a lot more.

 

I base my purchase decisions on what's available now, not what fan sites tell me will be available in a few years. Other than a few specific situations that do not apply to me (very long exposure times), I don't see anything right now that would make me switch systems. Nobody can tell the difference between a 37MP print and a 50MP print on a wall (especially when the lower-res file is made with better lenses). What matters to me is the practical aspects: which is more comfortable to shoot, easier to frame?

 

Leica has switched to a different communications strategy in the past few years. We only start to hear firm rumours a few weeks before a product is released, not a year out.

 

 

That, good man, is exactly my point. I would rather make a decision based on what is available now and what I know now about reliability and service. Which is why the S has somewhat fallen off my radar.

 

Hasselblad - 50 or 100MP options now - quite probably 100 and 150MP options in the future to upgrade to. X1D has a far more certain long term future, it is I think the camera of the future. 100MP now will set up for a LONG time.

Fuji - 50MP now - possibly 100MP 2018/19 - A good bankable future because of the attention and success it is receiving. MF Rangefinder coming next year.

Phase One - 50, 80 100MP options now - 100 and 150MP in the future - no view of mirrorless future yet but best software at the moment.

Leica S - 37MP now which is way too low - who knows what for the future, how long the wait will be, how long it will take to deliver. Historically slow development - another 10 years of the same resolution? It's future isn't certain, and it's present a bit rocky it could go the way of the R.

 

Crown that with reliability and customer care/service from my own experience

Hasselblad - top notch

Phase One - top notch

Fuji - I'm not sure of recent times but it used to be top notch decades ago when I used their mf systems.

Leica - not good

 

From this, the most bankable system at this point and IN MY OPINION is, in order:

Hasselblad H and X1D

Phase One XF

Fuji GFX

Leica S

 

But I prefer the Leica rendering most - that is very important to me and why I'm still reading this forum but I need more than what the 007 offers.

Edited by Paul J
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That, good man, is exactly my point. I would rather make a decision based on what is available now and what I know now about reliability and service. Which is why the S has somewhat fallen off my radar.

 

Hasselblad - 50 or 100MP options now - quite probably 100 and 150MP options in the future to upgrade to. X1D has a far more certain long term future, it is I think the camera of the future. 100MP now will future proof you for a LONG time.

Fuji - 50MP now - possibly 100MP 2018/19 - A good bankable future because of the attention and success it is receiving. MF Rangefinder coming next year.

Phase One - 50, 80 100MP options now - 100 and 150MP in the future - no view of mirrorless future yet but best software at the moment.

Leica S - 37MP now which is way too low - who knows what for the future, how long the wait will be, how long it will take to deliver. Historically slow development - another 10 years of the same resolution? It's future isn't certain, and it's present a bit rocky it could go the way of the R.

 

Crown that with reliability and customer care/service from my own experience

Hasselblad - top notch

Phase One - top notch

Fuji - I'm not sure of recent times but it used to be top notch decades ago when I used their mf systems.

Leica - not good

 

From this, the most bankable system at this point and IN MY OPINION is, in order:

Hasselblad H and X1D

Phase One XF

Fuji GFX

Leica S

 

But I prefer the Leica rendering most - that is very important to me and why I'm still reading this forum but I need more than what the 007 offers.

Paul, I agree with you. The S system need figure out what is special about it, why customers want choose it over other MF system or even modern 35mm system.

 

I also agree with you, Lens line up and rendering is the biggest selling point maybe the only selling point for the system right now, this might be an especially important factor for fashion shooting or portrait less so for landscape or other shooting like events or wedding. I can still see special of the lens rendering compare to 35mm offers, because I am experienced enough after access wide range of lenses and know what to look but does it really matter for majority users or even pros? Most of modern 35mm Lens can be extreme sharp with fast reliable focusing at way low price point and trouble free. For landscape stuff, pixel is pixel, you will be pushed to see difference at f5.6~f11. However, I do see the dynamic range difference more often when compare S to latest 35mm System even using S007. 

 

I don't need pixel, but the fact is most 35M system is at around 50M right now, S has to move up or give up. S2 at the time of introduction can be seen as innovation and special, after almost 10 years, it desperately need to be upgraded. The market value of the system is well reflected on 2nd market. Very sad! 

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Paul, I agree with you. The S system need figure out what is special about it, why customers want choose it over other MF system or even modern 35mm system.

 

I also agree with you, Lens line up and rendering is the biggest selling point maybe the only selling point for the system right now, this might be an especially important factor for fashion shooting or portrait less so for landscape or other shooting like events or wedding. I can still see special of the lens rendering compare to 35mm offers, because I am experienced enough after access wide range of lenses and know what to look but does it really matter for majority users or even pros? Most of modern 35mm Lens can be extreme sharp with fast reliable focusing at way low price point and trouble free. For landscape stuff, pixel is pixel, you will be pushed to see difference at f5.6~f11. However, I do see the dynamic range difference more often when compare S to latest 35mm System even using S007. 

 

I don't need pixel, but the fact is most 35M system is at around 50M right now, S has to move up or give up. S2 at the time of introduction can be seen as innovation and special, after almost 10 years, it desperately need to be upgraded. The market value of the system is well reflected on 2nd market. Very sad! 

 

Well said, but I think Leica has already etched out their market direction. You can see this in their marketing with the S Magazine, it's directed almost purely at fashion.

 

The S has the rendering I want but I need more pixels.

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Jon,

 

The problem I have with your suggestion, and other similar ones, is that it's saying "make it like everyone else's system, only with a red dot."

 

The reason I was drawn into the S system is the form factor (similar to a 1Dx), and the incredible viewfinder. It's the only medium format system that one can shoot all day in a fast-paced environment (without assistants). Why would I give that up for a "me too" camera?

 

Surely you knew about the wide range of medium format digital view cameras when you bought your S? If you want something to replace your 4x5, there was/is no shortage of options.

 

As I stated earlier, I expect that Leica will release a successor to the Sinar 30|45 mirrorless camera, using the S-008's electronics (and probably the SL's EVF). That's great, and it might take a few sales away from other mirrorless MF systems, but it only makes sense as a complement to a real (OVF) S-008.

 

 

It was a promising design, but like you said, also a 'Me Too' camera copying the strength of a 135 format. Ultimately time moves on and if S continue to stay put particularly in sensor tech, no matter how good the glass are. It's not doing them justice.

Edited by xiaubauu2009
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