Clean CL at 3200 iso?

[imants]

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lct I am still surprised that you and jaap bought the CL

[jaapv]

Why?

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[imants]

Mainly because the camera  has that same as the rest of the pack element to it.

[lct]

lct I am still surprised that you and jaap bought the CL

 

I don't know for Jaap but aside from DSLRs, i've been interested in digital APS "backs" for M lenses since 2004 with my good old R-D1, then with a M8.2, a Ricoh GXR and a Fuji X-E2 before the CL. All for use of smaller M lenses mainly. Suffice it to compare the bulk of the Summilux 75/1.4 to that of any Summilux 50/1.4 to see what i mean. I just miss fast wides from time to time but i have FF cameras for that.

[jaapv]

Mainly because the camera  has that same as the rest of the pack element to it.

Sorry, but I don't get that one.

[Photon42]

I’ll see if I can dig up a good, general reference that isn’t too technical. In the meanwhile here is a brief description.

 

There are several sources of noise in any image. The first is read noise—the ability of the camera to accurately read out the contents of the CMOS chip at each pixel. It is typically fixed at somewhere between 2 and 20 electrons depending on ISO. If you are trying to read out 20,000 electrons of signal (plenty of light) even 20 electrons is immaterial. As the light gets dimmer, though, 20 electrons are more relevant. If your signal was 100 electrons, that read noise matters—a lot. This was the situation we were in, say, ten years ago. Since then, read noise levels have been dropping. Now it’s not at all unusual to see less than 2 electrons of read noise. Even with very low light, 2 electrons is usually pretty minor.

 

The next source of noise is thermal noise. This really only affects long exposures. I’ll ignore this for now.

 

The interesting one for this discussion is shot noise. Light itself is quantized, and the flow of photons from your subject into the camera is not perfectly even. This is shot noise and is inherent in the light. Google Poisson distribution if you want to read about this. Basically, it’s the random distribution of counts that are bounded at zero. Like a bell curve for measuring light. Even a theoretically perfect detector can’t do anything about this. There just isn’t enough light at each pixel. It’s an upper wall for all detectors.

 

So why did I mention “pixel pitch” and “sensor size?” If you have a larger sensor or larger pixels (or both), you get more light hitting each pixel so the “wall” moves up. This is why the Sony A7s does so well, for example, compared to other full frame chips. Only 12 megapixels, so many more photons per pixel vs a higher resolution camera. Better signal-to-noise in the light itself.

 

We are literally getting to the point where sensors won’t be able to improve any more. Quantum efficiency on many back side illuminated sensors is approaching 80%, so there is no more light to grab. Read noise is already down around 2 electrons. Thermal noise is all but irrelevant for exposures up to several seconds. What’s left is the physics of light itself

 

 

I found this an interesting read. Thanks for posting.

 

Ivo

[AlanJW]

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I am finding that - unsurprisingly - the CL high ISO is not as good as M10 or SL.   However, images up to 12500 clean up quite well with Dfine and I expect other de-noise plug-ins will also be good enough.

 

Of course it isn't the same.  The trade off is decreased weight, increased portability, and AF if you want that.   Would I like to see a slightly larger M sized EVF camera with a FF sensor?  Yes if it were smaller than a SL.   I expect we will see it at some point, but in the meanwhile I am enjoying all my gear.

[lct]

Mainly because the camera  has that same as the rest of the pack element to it.

 

What the rest of the pack has not is compatibility with M lenses, especially wides. Only current competitor is Leica TL2 there but not everybody likes smartphone UI and accessory EVF. 

[imants]

 Didn't refer to m lenses just that it is no different to other APS-C cameras and there is no Leica CL pedigree about it. Maybe the M12.7 will shrink to Leica CL film size

 

 Other than that I guess your reasons seem sound

Edited December 27, 2017 by imants

[lct]

The CL has nothing to do with the CL indeed. I don't understand this bad habit to keep the same name for different things. What's an "M"? What's a "CL". Marketing oddities i guess .

[Chaemono]

Sorry, but I don't get that one.

Neither do I, especially not in a thread that is started with the topic “Clean CL at 3200 iso.” Surprising how much the conversation is veering off topic now. I’m thinking of doing low light comparisons M10 vs. CL vs. Sony α7R III. Will post the link here

[jaapv]

 Didn't refer to m lenses just that it is no different to other APS-C cameras and there is no Leica CL pedigree about it. Maybe the M12.7 will shrink to Leica CL film size

 

 Other than that I guess your reasons seem sound

Well, to me there is quite a difference to other APS-C cameras, certainly in relationship to my other camera systems, and what has "pedigree", whatever that may be for an inanimate object, to do with the usefulness of a tool?

[imants]

Well, to me there is quite a difference to other APS-C cameras, certainly in relationship to my other camera systems, and what has "pedigree", whatever that may be for an inanimate object, to do with the usefulness of a tool?

 Japp it depends on the country region etc how the word and in what context  pedigree is used and it is used in context of history lineage etc. Not all English words are stuck to single usage.

 As far as the camera is well it is a bit same same but no stabilisation , far too complicated  menu as others have etc  The M and Q run rings around it as do other brands

Edited December 27, 2017 by imants

[jaapv]

I cannot say the menu is more complicated that other Leica cameras. Structured a bit more SL-like, yes, but quite intuitive.

[vikasmg]

FWIW, This is ISO 12500. Sure, its got grain, but I think it looks fine and done without the intrusiveness of a big machine.

 

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[vikasmg]

... far too complicated  menu as others have etc  ...

How do you figure that? It’s as straightforward a menu as the M or Q ...

 

- Vikas

[jaapv]

You have to figure out that there is a main menu and that the functions are repeated in the button assignment, that is all.

[Photon42]

Japp it depends on the country region etc how the word and in what context pedigree is used and it is used in context of history lineage etc. Not all English words are stuck to single usage.

As far as the camera is well it is a bit same same but no stabilisation , far too complicated menu as others have etc The M and Q run rings around it as do other brands

The CL is not made for the ring thing but to take photographs, which I think it does well enough. I agree that IBIS would have been nice. I guess it is coming - some time.

I do not understand the menu complaints, specifically not in comparison with the M and Q. Very similar. And one needs to familiarize themselves with some functionality.

For instance you will see the latest capture as long as you continue to keep the shutter button pressed. Thoughtful to implementation.

[jaapv]

Which is a feature that can set on the M240, BTW.

As for heritage, it looks like a Leica Standard, handles like a iiif, is laid out like a cross between the M10 and SL, and takes about any Leica lens ever made through active adapters. What else could one wish for?

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[adan]

What else could one wish for?

 

Well, from the thread title, perhaps better ISO 3200?

 

Just kidding...