M10 Lens Quest

[Johno]

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Hi

 

I'm hoping for saome lens advice. I absolutely love Zeiss on my d800 and I'm looking for at least that quality. But I understand Leica m is all about the fine Leica lenses.

 

I tried a new Summarit-M 35 f2.4 and didn't love it so I sent it back. It see,ed not special. I've ordered a new Summicron-M 28 mm f2 and now I'm pre-regretting that based on the thread here saying the $4195 new one is not much better than the old version. Or is it? I could not tell which view won.

 

A Zeiss planar 50 mm f2 is on the way. Good call?

 

I bought a used early copy of a 90 mm apo ASPH and like it ok. Is it a good call for an m10? Or does it have focus shift probl ms solved by a new version?

 

I'm wondering if the $4195 would be better spent on a Zeiss 28mm f2.8 plus Zeiss 35 mm f 1.4. With money to spare.

 

I like the idea of owning $6,000 and $9,000 lenses but it seems more brand than substance. Why? Plastic!!! Zeiss feels like solid high quality. Leica charges a lot more for lenses with plastic bits. As a guy new to Leica, I think that's weird for $4195.

 

A friend has a 35 mm summilux for sale for $3,800 but I've learned the old version has focus shift. So it scared me off.

 

Regardless, I'm heading toward 28 mm, 50 mm and 90 mm.

 

Did I make a bad call with the new 28mm Summicron?

 

Thanks for your guidance, and patience.

[a.noctilux]

I only know that your quest will be long and "winding", as you would have as many answers as repliers here.

 

As side note, my quest continues since 1980's (no not for M10 but all that came by then): I'm pleased to do that.

Discoveries of New M Lenses are something I never have enough.

 

(I already use too many lenses by now for M10 and co., some are excellent and some do the job)

 

One answer to be positive : try by yourself as you've done with Summarit-M 35mm.

Just with one lens to begin with and use it alone for some period and then conclude by yourself.

 

Remember that the lens itself does only what you plan it to do and "good lens" must do what you want and "bad lens" does it with some flaws.

Edited December 16, 2017 by a.noctilux

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[Adrian Lord]

I guess you need to firstly ask yourself whether you are a pixel-peeping technical kind of guy or whether you are more interested in the art and romance and 'glow' of the Mandler lenses. 

[TomB_tx]

I've used M cameras and lenses for over 50 years, and never bought a lens more expensive than around $2K. I've always had SLRs in addition for long lenses and macro, but prefer the Ms more for the joy of using them than for anything "special" about the images. They are fast for street and snapshots, unbeatable for manual focus in low light, and so familiar that the process for me is automatic.

Yet inevitably I find I like the shots I take with them better than with other cameras, even though I only use the "lower tier" of Leica lenses. My new M10 arrives Monday, and I'll stay with the same old glass I use on my M9 and film Ms.

[paulsydaus]

A lot to answer here.

Don’t think you will be disappointed by the 28/2.

You could have also considered the 28/2.8 to save money but loosing a stop.

The Zeiss 50/2 is a good call, excellent bang for buck.

All the Zeiss M lenses should be good but will be bigger and heavier than the equivalent Leica lenses.

Would look at the Leica 75/2.4 as and excellent value short tele to compliment your 90.

Not sure what plastic you are talking about? The hood? And the red dot? Hardly a lot of plastic?

Most of Leica lenses have metal hoods these days anyways... your new 28/2 will have a metal hood.

No one can answer if you made a bad call without knowing if you have experience with and like the 28mm focal length. But I’m pretty sure you will love the 28/2...

 

 

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[spydrxx]

It seems to me, as a new user of Leica gear, you are worrying too much and getting caught up in a few reader comments and widely applying their personal experiences. I'd encourage you to take a deep breath, slow down, and learn to use your gear to it's and your maximum potential. Every piece of equipment, Leica or otherwise, has compromises...perfection in all aspects is a great goal, but quite elusive.  Most serious photographers learn, mainly thru experience, what the shortcomings of their gear are, and devise ways to capitalize or work around those issues. It is too easy to get frustrated, just go and enjoy what you have, and learn from it. The master is the one who understands his tools and can use them to achieve his visions.

[Narsuitus]

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I'm hoping for saome lens advice. I absolutely love Zeiss on my d800 and I'm looking for at least that quality.

 

I also love the Zeiss 135mm f/2 and the Zeiss 28mm f/2 lenses that I use on my Nikon SLRs. For my Leica rangefinders, I use a Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 (see left lens in attached image) and love it.

 

Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 (left) by Narsuitus, on Flickr

[Abram]

I wholeheartedly agree with Spydrxx. Please don't take this the wrong way as I'm saying this from personal experience: You're focusing entirely too much on the gear right now. When I first got into Leica it was after a full 10 years of dreaming / scheming / saving / buying / selling to achieve my "dream". However I went about it all the wrong way, and you're headed right down the path I took. The M10 is a phenomenal digital camera / platform and easily capable of producing wonderful results with just about any lens you put in front of it. I strongly, STRONGLY recommend that you take it slow and start with one, maybe two lenses in focal lengths you know and are comfortable with. 

 

Leicas are expensive, no argument there, but in my opinion they only get incredibly expensive when we feel that we have to have every focal length covered. Exercise some creative minimalism and choose your favorite focal lengths accordingly. It took a lot of buying / selling / trading for me to figure out what lenses I like and want and a lot of "restarts". There's a mental game that we play in expecting the utmost perfection based almost exclusively on the price-tag of the equipment we are all buying. Leica has flaws just like any other company, but as it has been said above, it is up to you to master your own tools and work with those flaws (or as we come to know it, "Character").

 

All of the brands of lenses out there are capable of excellent results, it honestly doesn't matter who the manufacturer is. Some of us prefer the characteristics of older lenses, some of us prefer newer ones, everyones preference is valid.

 

TL;DR - Start slow, pick one lens to begin and grow from there.

[Jenningsmca]

I thought I saw somewhere that Zeiss has discontinued the standard lenses and only now producing the Zeiss Milvus lineup.

[Mark Pope]

What was it about the 35mm Summarit that you didn't "love"?

[new2leica]

You can either follow your heart in the beginning or in the end. If the latter be prepared for a trip down a money sink because the lessons are not cheap.

[bocaburger]

My newest Leica lens is the v.4 28/2.8.  At one time I owned ASPH versions of  21/2.8, 35/2, 35/1.4, 90/2, and 135/3.4 APO.  Sold all, kept the Mandler-era versions.  They work fine for me, plus lighter, better-made and less costly.

[james.liam]

I thought I saw somewhere that Zeiss has discontinued the standard lenses and only now producing the Zeiss Milvus lineup.

 

They discontinued their Classic DSLR line, not the ZM line. Some ZM's have been discontinued like the 4,5/21 and 4/18, but remain available new at some retailers. 

[JDFlood]

I am fairly new to the M. I have probably 100k+ exposures on my D800 and Fuji x. I wholeheartedly agree with the slow approach. It is a whole new world. It may not be the lens you are reacting to, could be the new system. I don’t think I started to see spectacular photos for 5,000 exposures. I would start with one “normal” lens... whatever that is to you. To me, 35mm f2. And really work it. Learn the system. It is nothing like Nikon... makes you think adopt photography differently, well, to me anyway. My Nikon and Fiji lens collection is similar... Leica, completely different (closely clustered around 35mm)

 

I am way behind on processing, so have been processing images from all three of my cameras, and the Leica images are proving to be nothing short of spectacular. They are spectacular in their rendering... a complex word meaning a lot more than just image sharpness (I don’t mean to talk down to you if you completely get the term... but I only recently really understood the term after 50 years of photography).There is an article named “The Leica Look”, at a site called the Art Academy that I think captures the nuances of what The M and Leica lenses do that makes the combination magical. The street says the Zeiss tend to be a little more analytical / sharp looking... I actually only received my first Zeiss lens today, a 21mm 2.8. So, I have no personal experience. I do a lot of landscape and just plain needed a really wide angle... and was curious about the Zeiss. Look forward to learning. Anyway, I have definitely fallen in love with the Leica / Leica rendering. Enjoy your new camera... I certainly am.

 

JD

 

 

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[Johno]

Thanks everyone. A few thoughts in response:

 

I guess you need to firstly ask yourself whether you are a pixel-peeping technical kind of guy or whether you are more interested in the art and romance and 'glow' of the Mandler lenses.

 

 

 

I'm a bit of a pixel peeper, but I like the art too. Trouble is I'm not too special of a photographer, and my own photos don't impress me too much. I'm not aware of the Mandler lenses, and I would love to see examples of the art and romance and glow they produce.

 

Do I have a Mandler lens on the way in the 1970s Summicron 50 mm f2 that's on the way from Central Camera?

 

 

A lot to answer here.

Don’t think you will be disappointed by the 28/2.

You could have also considered the 28/2.8 to save money but loosing a stop.

The Zeiss 50/2 is a good call, excellent bang for buck.

All the Zeiss M lenses should be good but will be bigger and heavier than the equivalent Leica lenses.

Would look at the Leica 75/2.4 as and excellent value short tele to compliment your 90.

Not sure what plastic you are talking about? The hood? And the red dot? Hardly a lot of plastic?

Most of Leica lenses have metal hoods these days anyways... your new 28/2 will have a metal hood.

No one can answer if you made a bad call without knowing if you have experience with and like the 28mm focal length. But I’m pretty sure you will love the 28/2...

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By plastic I meant the focusing tab. Maybe that was aluminum and not plastic. I've shot a couple of images with the 28. Nothing serious. It's a lot of money for something that small!

 

  

What was it about the 35mm Summarit that you didn't "love"?

 

 

Partly I was worried that it was the "budget" lens and I was somehow missing something by not having a lens from higher up in their line. Also, I liked the 28 mm f 1.7 in the Q, and I decided to chase that experience by getting a faster 28 mm. (The new f2 Summicron.)

 

 

You can either follow your heart in the beginning or in the end. If the latter be prepared for a trip down a money sink because the lessons are not cheap.

Thanks for the interesting thought.

 

  

My newest Leica lens is the v.4 28/2.8.  At one time I owned ASPH versions of  21/2.8, 35/2, 35/1.4, 90/2, and 135/3.4 APO.  Sold all, kept the Mandler-era versions.  They work fine for me, plus lighter, better-made and less costly.

Interesting. What made the Mandler era versions different? What years were that era?

[Mark Pope]

So, it would seem that you’re saying you didn’t love the lens because it was cheaper than the alternatives. I had rather hoped it was something to do with the way the lens rendered rather than how (relatively) expensive the lens was. If that’s the case, perhaps you will love the 28mm Summilux even more?

[steamboat]

Slow down.

You mentioned four focal lengths.

Get one Leica lens. Why bother with off-brand lenses. BTW, if you search forums you will find "issues" with most lenses. Reading forums I've found I had problems with many lenses I owned. But I never experienced the problems. Focus shift? Not for me in actual use.

Buy your lens used. In 50+ years of owning M cameras I've only purchased one new lens in 1970's.

With your M10 and ONE lens work the camera and lens. Hard. Ten thousand pictures. Then consider a second lens.

Good luck with your photography

[farnz]

... I've ordered a new Summicron-M 28 mm f2 and now I'm pre-regretting that based on the thread here saying the $4195 new one is not much better than the old version. Or is it? I could not tell which view won. ...

Hi, Johno,

 

The version 1 of the 28/2 Summicron-M asph was a superb lens in its own right with exceptionally smooth microcontrast (the gradual change from black to white) and in my experience was one of the most flare resistant lenses I have ever used.  I won't refer to sharpness because it's an artificial construct from a combination of resolution, contrast, and acutance; suffice to say that the Summicron scores very highly in all three areas.  Despite having spent 15 years as a dedicated landscape photographer the 28/2 Summicron was easily the best 28 millimetre lens I have ever used, which includes medium format equivalents.

 

According to the reviews I've read from reviewers whose opinions I respect and who I am certain have no hidden agenda(s), the version 2 (that you've ordered) is slightly better because it's designed for use with a digital sensor.  All that this means is that the version 1 was designed before digital Leica cameras existed and and were therefore designed for film use.  

 

Film emulsions have a finite thickness at the point where light rays should converge but digital sensors present a flat plane with zero thickness and therefore zero tolerance.  The result is that the version 2 is designed to have zero (or in practical terms: "minimal") tolerance so that light rays faithfully converge at the sensor.  From this perspective, when used on a digital Leica camera it is reasonable to expect the version 2 to perform slightly better than the version 1 although in many instances the differences are likely to be invisible.

 

The optical computation (read: "design") of both lenses is the same so the performance of the version 2 will be at least as good as the exceptional version 1 28/2 Summicron-M asph.  The bit that you were missing was how good the version 1 was/is.

 

I hope you enjoy your new Leica kit and I will echo what others here have said - your thinking might be (understandably) polarised by one or two forcefully-put opinions.  This, like other forums, is a natural amplifier of negative opinions and beliefs because people who are happy with their equipment rarely take the time to post that they are, which regrettably causes an imbalance towards the negative.

 

Pete.

[adan]

I've shot a couple of images with the 28. Nothing serious. It's a lot of money for something that small!

 

Uhh, yes. With Leica M, "small" is exactly what I pay the extra bucks for.

 

Interesting. What made the Mandler era versions different? What years were that era?

 

The gross era was from the 1950s into the 1980s, but Mandler's "classic" era were the M lenses designed around 1980 for production in the Midland, Canada factory: 21 f/2.8, 28mm v.3, 35 f/2 v. 4, 50 Summicron (the one still in Leica's lineup), 50 Noctilux f/1.0, 75 f/1.4, 90 f/2, 90 Tele-Elmarit v.2. Also some even more ancient (35 and 50 summiluxes, 135 f/4 and f/2.8). All non-APO/ASPH. (Mandler also designed many R lenses - but this is the M lens Forum....).

 

What is different? Lower overall contrast (= more potential DR, with slide film or on digital, less harsh), slightly greener color balance (suntanned rather than sunburnt skin colors, blue/cyan rather than blue/purple skies). Designs optimized for resolution in the center of the image (for photojournalists). Occasionally exceptional bokeh (75, 90 f/2, and for some tastes, 35 f/2 and f/1.4 and the 50s). A few that are exceptionally compact and light-weight - 35s, 50s, 90 Tele-Elmarit; and a few that are not - 75 Summilux, 50 Noctilux, 21 and 28 Elmarits. The earliest lenses for which Leica provides upgrades to 6-bit coding, or for manual selection in the digital camera menus.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/45272-in-praise-of-the-mandler-lenses/

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266277-show-us-some-mandler-magic/

 

_________________

 

Speaking of 6-bit coding, the new M10 is exceptionally "picky" about the coding. It does not recognize "hand-coding" that previous digital Ms would recognize. Which is why I myself (YMMV) steer clear of 3rd-party lenses like Zeiss ZM or some Voigtlanders (or even uncoded Leica lenses). Especially wider than 50mm - color stains in the corners/edges without Leica's proprietary in-camera corrections from lens recognition.

Edited December 20, 2017 by adan

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[Runkel]

You are likely to enjoy the results from any of the lenses you mention, and I will just add my specific answers (opinions) to the good advice you have already received.  As for whether or not to slow down, part of the fun is playing with different things, and different budgets allow different amounts/rates of play.  I will say it is easy to end up with a lot more lenses than actually necessary--and to use each one less than needed for intuitive mastery--if your budget is more generous.

 

I have the v1 28mm Summicron and have not used the new one, which is supposed to be somewhat better in the corners.  I also had a v4 (last pre-ASPH) 28/2.8 Elmarit before the Summicron.  I have never had a single letdown or bad experience with either lens, or felt it was holding me back.  The v1 Summicron has been the favorite lens of a lot of people, and it has a reputation for being one of the most "spherical" looking of the ASPH lenses in terms of rendering.  You can get the v1 for less than $2000; a late one just sold on Rangefinderforum for $1600.  My opinion is that you pay a lot for the marginal advantages of the v2.  It's not a bad call, but luxurious, and you'll never worry about a need to "upgrade".  If it were me, I would get a v1 and put the other $2000 toward something like a used 21mm Super-Elmar.

 

Planar 50/2 is a good call.  The 70s 50 Summicron you have coming is a Mandler design although not at the head of the Pantheon of Mandler designs people swoon about.  Sometimes referred to as v3 or the 1969 version, the line on this one is that it had a bit less resolution and a bit more contrast than its predecessor, making for a nice blend of old and new.  Either of these could be an only lens or an only 50.

 

There is still only one version of the 90 Summicron ASPH.  I have had the R-mount version two separate times and it is exceptional.

 

I would prefer the v4 (last pre-ASPH) 28/2.8 Elmarit to the Zeiss 28/2.8.  With the M10 you really only need a fast 35 if you like the look wide open.  The Zeiss 35/1.4 seems quite large and would be one to try first before buying.

 

I wouldn't worry about plastic vs. metal.  All but the two most exotic ZM lenses are made in Japan by Cosina with Zeiss quality control.  Leica are made in Germany.  I prefer Leica focus tabs to the ZM nipples.

 

The prior version 35 Summilux has some focus shift in roughly the f/2.8-f/4 range, which no one ever noticed on film.  This was my first Leica lens and it worked perfectly on my M9, although my shooting was seldom at the affected apertures.  I foolishly sold that lens and recently got another one, which is working perfectly on my current Leica digitals.  It has a very nice look, perhaps the other most "spherical" looking of the ASPHs.  It wasn't clear which version 35 lux your friend is selling.  If the current version, the floating element avoids focus shift, and the rendering is much different from the prior version (more of the current-issue-ASPH look).  Market price for a v1 is at least a thousand dollars less than your friend's asking price.

 

I have had quite a few Leica lenses and never bought new.  The value proposition has never seemed quite right for me.  I have bought new ZM lenses and various new lenses for other systems.  

 

Good luck and have fun!

 

Matt

 

 

Hi

I'm hoping for saome lens advice. I absolutely love Zeiss on my d800 and I'm looking for at least that quality. But I understand Leica m is all about the fine Leica lenses.

I tried a new Summarit-M 35 f2.4 and didn't love it so I sent it back. It see,ed not special. I've ordered a new Summicron-M 28 mm f2 and now I'm pre-regretting that based on the thread here saying the $4195 new one is not much better than the old version. Or is it? I could not tell which view won.

A Zeiss planar 50 mm f2 is on the way. Good call?

I bought a used early copy of a 90 mm apo ASPH and like it ok. Is it a good call for an m10? Or does it have focus shift probl ms solved by a new version?

I'm wondering if the $4195 would be better spent on a Zeiss 28mm f2.8 plus Zeiss 35 mm f 1.4. With money to spare.

I like the idea of owning $6,000 and $9,000 lenses but it seems more brand than substance. Why? Plastic!!! Zeiss feels like solid high quality. Leica charges a lot more for lenses with plastic bits. As a guy new to Leica, I think that's weird for $4195.

A friend has a 35 mm summilux for sale for $3,800 but I've learned the old version has focus shift. So it scared me off.

Regardless, I'm heading toward 28 mm, 50 mm and 90 mm.

Did I make a bad call with the new 28mm Summicron?

Thanks for your guidance, and patience.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Runkel